'Canned hunting is a barbaric industry," says Gloucestershire photographer Paul Tully

'Canned hunting is a barbaric industry," says Gloucestershire photographer Paul Tully

Lions are being bred in captivity in South African so they can be shot by wealthy tourists on hunting vacations

Canned hunting is a controversial business in South Africa, where lions are bred on farms to be shot by wealthy foreign trophy-hunters

Paul Tully has helped to organise a march against canned hunting

First published in News
Last updated

THOUSANDS of lions are being bred in captivity in South African so they can be shot by wealthy tourists on hunting vacations.

In cities throughout the world animal rights activists will demonstrate against the practise of canned hunting by taking part in the Global March for Lions.

Paul Tully, 33, has helped to organise the march in London, which is due to take place on March 15, and is encouraging people in Stroud to join him.

"Having lived in Stroud I know that people here will be shocked to learn about canned hunting," said Paul, who recently moved to Gloucester.

"It is a barbaric industry yet little is known about it."

Canned hunting is a controversial business in South Africa, where lions are bred on farms to be shot by wealthy foreign trophy-hunters.

The animals are unfairly prevented from escaping the hunter, because they are in fenced areas and because they are tame and used to humans after spending years in petting zoos.

Paul, an assistant retail manager and photographer, said: "I have always had an active interest in conservation but now I must do more, as we all should.

"Africa has always been in my heart, with so many species either close to extinction, endangered or close to being classed an endangered.

"The volunteer and cub petting industry in South Africa is a huge problem.

"Volunteers are being sent, unknowing to them, to illegitimate lion parks to care for these cubs and tourists will pay to pet them.

"In both cases, that cub will almost certainly end up in a canned hunt - a brutal end to a miserable captive life.

"The public need to be aware of the current failures in wildlife legislation that have allowed the once mighty lion to be degraded and traded as common livestock on farms of misery and horror."

For more information go to www.cannedlion.org or to take part or sponsor the march email globalmarchforlions@gmail.com

Comments (45)

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3:29pm Sun 12 Jan 14

dimreepr says...

How does this industry differ from what most consider legitimate livestock farming? Yes, when presented in such a biased way, it's very easy to fall into the cute reaction trap and feel outraged. However pragmatism should always have its say; and this case is fairly simple, in that, the revenue is needed for the very expensive trade of conservation for the greater good.
How does this industry differ from what most consider legitimate livestock farming? Yes, when presented in such a biased way, it's very easy to fall into the cute reaction trap and feel outraged. However pragmatism should always have its say; and this case is fairly simple, in that, the revenue is needed for the very expensive trade of conservation for the greater good. dimreepr
  • Score: -14

3:47pm Sun 12 Jan 14

A Stroud Worm says...

It is so sad that you think that this can be compared in a good way to livestock farming. You offer the pragmatic view here dim, but what is your own view? Is lion hunting good or bad?
It is so sad that you think that this can be compared in a good way to livestock farming. You offer the pragmatic view here dim, but what is your own view? Is lion hunting good or bad? A Stroud Worm
  • Score: 6

4:12pm Sun 12 Jan 14

dimreepr says...

My view is:
The lions that, if the article is to be believed, are tame; this means when hunted they would be under far less stress than their wild counterparts, which, in the absence of this alternative, the hunt would be the wild version, no doubt, under the guise of a cull.
The pragmatic stance means domesticated lions are killed with far less stress than their wild cousins would be subject to and due to the local financial interest, provide incentive to maintain the surrounding ecological balance.
The cute reaction means animals under lots of stress being hunted and killed.
My view is: The lions that, if the article is to be believed, are tame; this means when hunted they would be under far less stress than their wild counterparts, which, in the absence of this alternative, the hunt would be the wild version, no doubt, under the guise of a cull. The pragmatic stance means domesticated lions are killed with far less stress than their wild cousins would be subject to and due to the local financial interest, provide incentive to maintain the surrounding ecological balance. The cute reaction means animals under lots of stress being hunted and killed. dimreepr
  • Score: -10

5:51pm Sun 12 Jan 14

PaulTully says...

dimreepr wrote:
How does this industry differ from what most consider legitimate livestock farming? Yes, when presented in such a biased way, it's very easy to fall into the cute reaction trap and feel outraged. However pragmatism should always have its say; and this case is fairly simple, in that, the revenue is needed for the very expensive trade of conservation for the greater good.
Please educate yourself on this matter.

This is in no way similar to breeding cattle for example. These are intelligent animals bred to be killed.

So little money from this "industry" actually makes it to conservation, this of course is a popular lie told by hunters themselves.

A recent study & report showed that less than 5% of hunting revenue actually makes it to local communities for example.

Hunting DOES NOT aid conservation whatsoever ... this is a myth told by hunters.
[quote][p][bold]dimreepr[/bold] wrote: How does this industry differ from what most consider legitimate livestock farming? Yes, when presented in such a biased way, it's very easy to fall into the cute reaction trap and feel outraged. However pragmatism should always have its say; and this case is fairly simple, in that, the revenue is needed for the very expensive trade of conservation for the greater good.[/p][/quote]Please educate yourself on this matter. This is in no way similar to breeding cattle for example. These are intelligent animals bred to be killed. So little money from this "industry" actually makes it to conservation, this of course is a popular lie told by hunters themselves. A recent study & report showed that less than 5% of hunting revenue actually makes it to local communities for example. Hunting DOES NOT aid conservation whatsoever ... this is a myth told by hunters. PaulTully
  • Score: 12

5:56pm Sun 12 Jan 14

PaulTully says...

dimreepr wrote:
My view is:
The lions that, if the article is to be believed, are tame; this means when hunted they would be under far less stress than their wild counterparts, which, in the absence of this alternative, the hunt would be the wild version, no doubt, under the guise of a cull.
The pragmatic stance means domesticated lions are killed with far less stress than their wild cousins would be subject to and due to the local financial interest, provide incentive to maintain the surrounding ecological balance.
The cute reaction means animals under lots of stress being hunted and killed.
There is NO local financial interest.

Tame? Cubs are RIPPED away fro, their mothers after 2 weeks. They are then forced to be petted by tourists, after a few years being accustomed to humans, they are placed into a confined area.

Once in this confined area, a truck will come along, the Lion will think it has food, as this is what the Lion is bred to be accustomed to. Only this time, there's a gun or arrow, ready to murder it.

The Lion's tameness DOES NOT mean there is less suffering & stress!

What kind of person would think that???

Cubs often dies early from diseases caught from human interaction or drugs given to them in captivity.
[quote][p][bold]dimreepr[/bold] wrote: My view is: The lions that, if the article is to be believed, are tame; this means when hunted they would be under far less stress than their wild counterparts, which, in the absence of this alternative, the hunt would be the wild version, no doubt, under the guise of a cull. The pragmatic stance means domesticated lions are killed with far less stress than their wild cousins would be subject to and due to the local financial interest, provide incentive to maintain the surrounding ecological balance. The cute reaction means animals under lots of stress being hunted and killed.[/p][/quote]There is NO local financial interest. Tame? Cubs are RIPPED away fro, their mothers after 2 weeks. They are then forced to be petted by tourists, after a few years being accustomed to humans, they are placed into a confined area. Once in this confined area, a truck will come along, the Lion will think it has food, as this is what the Lion is bred to be accustomed to. Only this time, there's a gun or arrow, ready to murder it. The Lion's tameness DOES NOT mean there is less suffering & stress! What kind of person would think that??? Cubs often dies early from diseases caught from human interaction or drugs given to them in captivity. PaulTully
  • Score: 9

6:01pm Sun 12 Jan 14

dimreepr says...

"A recent study & report showed that less than 5% of hunting revenue actually makes it to local communities for example."

"Hunting DOES NOT aid conservation whatsoever ... this is a myth told by hunters."

Clearly a contradiction and neither statements answers my premise.
"A recent study & report showed that less than 5% of hunting revenue actually makes it to local communities for example." "Hunting DOES NOT aid conservation whatsoever ... this is a myth told by hunters." Clearly a contradiction and neither statements answers my premise. dimreepr
  • Score: -6

6:03pm Sun 12 Jan 14

PaulTully says...

A common lie told by hunters is that hunting benefits local communities & conservation.

This is not the case.

Extensive reports clearly show that less than 5% of revenue gained, makes it to local communities in South Africa & Africa.

Canned Hunting - cubs are RIPPED from the mothers after 2 weeks. They are then forced to be petted, often drugged, made sure they are used to human interaction.

The Lions are TAME because they need the Lion to be EASY to murder.

After a few years, the Lion will be places into a restricted space, a vehicle will come along, which the Lion thinks is food ... only this time, it's not food. It's a hunter with a gun or bow.

This "industry" is both cruel & barbaric and in no way can it be associated with regular farming.

Please open your minds. All of this cruelty so some rich person can have a Lions head on his wall??????
A common lie told by hunters is that hunting benefits local communities & conservation. This is not the case. Extensive reports clearly show that less than 5% of revenue gained, makes it to local communities in South Africa & Africa. Canned Hunting - cubs are RIPPED from the mothers after 2 weeks. They are then forced to be petted, often drugged, made sure they are used to human interaction. The Lions are TAME because they need the Lion to be EASY to murder. After a few years, the Lion will be places into a restricted space, a vehicle will come along, which the Lion thinks is food ... only this time, it's not food. It's a hunter with a gun or bow. This "industry" is both cruel & barbaric and in no way can it be associated with regular farming. Please open your minds. All of this cruelty so some rich person can have a Lions head on his wall?????? PaulTully
  • Score: 10

6:08pm Sun 12 Jan 14

PaulTully says...

dimreepr wrote:
"A recent study & report showed that less than 5% of hunting revenue actually makes it to local communities for example."

"Hunting DOES NOT aid conservation whatsoever ... this is a myth told by hunters."

Clearly a contradiction and neither statements answers my premise.
There is no premise. Your comment is obsurd.

Lions the same as livestock? Definitely not.

Local communties & conservation benefit? Definitely not.
[quote][p][bold]dimreepr[/bold] wrote: "A recent study & report showed that less than 5% of hunting revenue actually makes it to local communities for example." "Hunting DOES NOT aid conservation whatsoever ... this is a myth told by hunters." Clearly a contradiction and neither statements answers my premise.[/p][/quote]There is no premise. Your comment is obsurd. Lions the same as livestock? Definitely not. Local communties & conservation benefit? Definitely not. PaulTully
  • Score: 12

6:10pm Sun 12 Jan 14

PaulTully says...

dimreepr wrote:
"A recent study & report showed that less than 5% of hunting revenue actually makes it to local communities for example."

"Hunting DOES NOT aid conservation whatsoever ... this is a myth told by hunters."

Clearly a contradiction and neither statements answers my premise.
please visit www.cannedlion.org

also this IFAW report, which is based on an earlier in depth report into trophy hunting and the myths of conservational financial benefit.

http://www.ifaw.org/
sites/default/files/
Ecolarge-2013-200m-q
uestion.pdf

any more info I can happily provide, just ask.
[quote][p][bold]dimreepr[/bold] wrote: "A recent study & report showed that less than 5% of hunting revenue actually makes it to local communities for example." "Hunting DOES NOT aid conservation whatsoever ... this is a myth told by hunters." Clearly a contradiction and neither statements answers my premise.[/p][/quote]please visit www.cannedlion.org also this IFAW report, which is based on an earlier in depth report into trophy hunting and the myths of conservational financial benefit. http://www.ifaw.org/ sites/default/files/ Ecolarge-2013-200m-q uestion.pdf any more info I can happily provide, just ask. PaulTully
  • Score: 5

6:12pm Sun 12 Jan 14

dimreepr says...

Paul, your entire argument is based on emotion, you have provided absolutely no evidence your idea that captive lions suffer less than their wild counterparts has any validity other than your, loud and repeated, assertions.
Paul, your entire argument is based on emotion, you have provided absolutely no evidence your idea that captive lions suffer less than their wild counterparts has any validity other than your, loud and repeated, assertions. dimreepr
  • Score: -7

6:13pm Sun 12 Jan 14

PaulTully says...

www.cannedlion.org

Learn about this barbaric & cruel "industry"
www.cannedlion.org Learn about this barbaric & cruel "industry" PaulTully
  • Score: 6

6:15pm Sun 12 Jan 14

A Stroud Worm says...

I'm with Paul Tully on this one. As I'm sure most people are. Thanks for bringing this issue to our attention.
I'm with Paul Tully on this one. As I'm sure most people are. Thanks for bringing this issue to our attention. A Stroud Worm
  • Score: 10

6:19pm Sun 12 Jan 14

PaulTully says...

dimreepr wrote:
Paul, your entire argument is based on emotion, you have provided absolutely no evidence your idea that captive lions suffer less than their wild counterparts has any validity other than your, loud and repeated, assertions.
Nope wrong there as well.

I have emotion, you do not then. That's correct isn't it? It must be.

This industry is happening for no other reason but to put money in the fat cats pockets & a HEAD on a wall.

If you think that's RIGHT then you are beyond help.

It's also a major factor in why the Lion populations have been decimated in Africa.

Do you want to see the African Lion extinct? Because it's clearly going that way unless we help.

Hunters are the reason for this, Canned Hunting is a major issue. Neither help the conservation of lions. Not in any way shape or form.

Please visit www.cannedlion.org and please learn.

You are the type of person we so desperately need to open their eyes.
[quote][p][bold]dimreepr[/bold] wrote: Paul, your entire argument is based on emotion, you have provided absolutely no evidence your idea that captive lions suffer less than their wild counterparts has any validity other than your, loud and repeated, assertions.[/p][/quote]Nope wrong there as well. I have emotion, you do not then. That's correct isn't it? It must be. This industry is happening for no other reason but to put money in the fat cats pockets & a HEAD on a wall. If you think that's RIGHT then you are beyond help. It's also a major factor in why the Lion populations have been decimated in Africa. Do you want to see the African Lion extinct? Because it's clearly going that way unless we help. Hunters are the reason for this, Canned Hunting is a major issue. Neither help the conservation of lions. Not in any way shape or form. Please visit www.cannedlion.org and please learn. You are the type of person we so desperately need to open their eyes. PaulTully
  • Score: 7

6:23pm Sun 12 Jan 14

PaulTully says...

A Stroud Worm wrote:
I'm with Paul Tully on this one. As I'm sure most people are. Thanks for bringing this issue to our attention.
Thank you.

If anyone cares for wildlife, this is a travesty, in particular intelligent animals like Lions who are highly sociable creatures.

I'd rather see them still in existence than being wiped out.

Thanks again.
[quote][p][bold]A Stroud Worm[/bold] wrote: I'm with Paul Tully on this one. As I'm sure most people are. Thanks for bringing this issue to our attention.[/p][/quote]Thank you. If anyone cares for wildlife, this is a travesty, in particular intelligent animals like Lions who are highly sociable creatures. I'd rather see them still in existence than being wiped out. Thanks again. PaulTully
  • Score: 7

6:27pm Sun 12 Jan 14

PaulTully says...

dimreepr wrote:
Paul, your entire argument is based on emotion, you have provided absolutely no evidence your idea that captive lions suffer less than their wild counterparts has any validity other than your, loud and repeated, assertions.
I'd much rather try and convince you to the contrary.

Lion Aid are also doing some great work in this area.

Maybe take a look here > http://www.lionaid.o
rg/lion-aid-charity-
objectives-save-lion
s.php
[quote][p][bold]dimreepr[/bold] wrote: Paul, your entire argument is based on emotion, you have provided absolutely no evidence your idea that captive lions suffer less than their wild counterparts has any validity other than your, loud and repeated, assertions.[/p][/quote]I'd much rather try and convince you to the contrary. Lion Aid are also doing some great work in this area. Maybe take a look here > http://www.lionaid.o rg/lion-aid-charity- objectives-save-lion s.php PaulTully
  • Score: 5

6:33pm Sun 12 Jan 14

dimreepr says...

Paul, I’m not the monster you and stroudworm think I am, but you and s/he do still have to address my initial point; after all this planet of ours will continue to turn regardless of its livestock, free or domesticated.
Paul, I’m not the monster you and stroudworm think I am, but you and s/he do still have to address my initial point; after all this planet of ours will continue to turn regardless of its livestock, free or domesticated. dimreepr
  • Score: -6

6:34pm Sun 12 Jan 14

PaulTully says...

PaulTully wrote:
dimreepr wrote:
Paul, your entire argument is based on emotion, you have provided absolutely no evidence your idea that captive lions suffer less than their wild counterparts has any validity other than your, loud and repeated, assertions.
I'd much rather try and convince you to the contrary.

Lion Aid are also doing some great work in this area.

Maybe take a look here > http://www.lionaid.o

rg/lion-aid-charity-

objectives-save-lion

s.php
" idea that captive lions suffer less than their wild counterparts"

you have even misread the article lol

Please re-read and understand thanks.
[quote][p][bold]PaulTully[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]dimreepr[/bold] wrote: Paul, your entire argument is based on emotion, you have provided absolutely no evidence your idea that captive lions suffer less than their wild counterparts has any validity other than your, loud and repeated, assertions.[/p][/quote]I'd much rather try and convince you to the contrary. Lion Aid are also doing some great work in this area. Maybe take a look here > http://www.lionaid.o rg/lion-aid-charity- objectives-save-lion s.php[/p][/quote]" idea that captive lions suffer less than their wild counterparts" you have even misread the article lol Please re-read and understand thanks. PaulTully
  • Score: 6

6:40pm Sun 12 Jan 14

PaulTully says...

dimreepr wrote:
Paul, I’m not the monster you and stroudworm think I am, but you and s/he do still have to address my initial point; after all this planet of ours will continue to turn regardless of its livestock, free or domesticated.
by you referring to Lions as livestock, shows your understanding of these magnificent animals. Zip.

Who are we to kill & murder ... for a trophy?

On top of this emotion, is the fact that conservation is suffering, because the money earned by governments from hunting, ISN'T ploughed into conservation. It's kept by the hunt organisers and government. Funds are not replenished into communities, or land.
[quote][p][bold]dimreepr[/bold] wrote: Paul, I’m not the monster you and stroudworm think I am, but you and s/he do still have to address my initial point; after all this planet of ours will continue to turn regardless of its livestock, free or domesticated.[/p][/quote]by you referring to Lions as livestock, shows your understanding of these magnificent animals. Zip. Who are we to kill & murder ... for a trophy? On top of this emotion, is the fact that conservation is suffering, because the money earned by governments from hunting, ISN'T ploughed into conservation. It's kept by the hunt organisers and government. Funds are not replenished into communities, or land. PaulTully
  • Score: 6

6:46pm Sun 12 Jan 14

PaulTully says...

dimreepr wrote:
How does this industry differ from what most consider legitimate livestock farming? Yes, when presented in such a biased way, it's very easy to fall into the cute reaction trap and feel outraged. However pragmatism should always have its say; and this case is fairly simple, in that, the revenue is needed for the very expensive trade of conservation for the greater good.
"revenue is needed for the very expensive trade of conservation for the greater good"

as stated and clearly reported, the revenue earned is soo poor, that it simply does not aid conservation.

you may also be interested in the overall impact > http://www.cannedlio
n.org/hunting---a-th
reat-to-our-national
-interests.html
[quote][p][bold]dimreepr[/bold] wrote: How does this industry differ from what most consider legitimate livestock farming? Yes, when presented in such a biased way, it's very easy to fall into the cute reaction trap and feel outraged. However pragmatism should always have its say; and this case is fairly simple, in that, the revenue is needed for the very expensive trade of conservation for the greater good.[/p][/quote]"revenue is needed for the very expensive trade of conservation for the greater good" as stated and clearly reported, the revenue earned is soo poor, that it simply does not aid conservation. you may also be interested in the overall impact > http://www.cannedlio n.org/hunting---a-th reat-to-our-national -interests.html PaulTully
  • Score: 6

6:48pm Sun 12 Jan 14

dimreepr says...

Well if the money earned isn’t going directly into preserving/conservin
g the local topographical/ecolog
ical landscape, then more fool them. You, however, do yourself no favours whatsoever in trying to argue one type of creature has any more validity/legitimacy than any other.
Well if the money earned isn’t going directly into preserving/conservin g the local topographical/ecolog ical landscape, then more fool them. You, however, do yourself no favours whatsoever in trying to argue one type of creature has any more validity/legitimacy than any other. dimreepr
  • Score: -5

7:18pm Sun 12 Jan 14

A Stroud Worm says...

dimreeper...... "You, however, do yourself no favours whatsoever in trying to argue one type of creature has any more validity/legitimacy than any other"

The lion has a right NOT to be killed by humans. End of.
dimreeper...... "You, however, do yourself no favours whatsoever in trying to argue one type of creature has any more validity/legitimacy than any other" The lion has a right NOT to be killed by humans. End of. A Stroud Worm
  • Score: 8

7:18pm Sun 12 Jan 14

PaulTully says...

dimreepr wrote:
Well if the money earned isn’t going directly into preserving/conservin

g the local topographical/ecolog

ical landscape, then more fool them. You, however, do yourself no favours whatsoever in trying to argue one type of creature has any more validity/legitimacy than any other.
I agree with you from the perspective of say Veganism, which I am not. I know many people who are of course, but I can clearly distinct between hunting for sustenance & hunting for sport.
But that get's into a far bigger ethical issue, which this is not the topic in question.

Focus on this though, what are your thoughts SPECIFICALLY on Hunting for Sport. An industry with very little conservation value, all for that trophy.

Here's Dr Pieter Kat's summary of a report, which focused on the economic viability of hunting >

http://www.lionaid.o
rg/blog/2011/04/a-so
cio-economic-analysi
s-of-trophy-hunting-
areas.htm
[quote][p][bold]dimreepr[/bold] wrote: Well if the money earned isn’t going directly into preserving/conservin g the local topographical/ecolog ical landscape, then more fool them. You, however, do yourself no favours whatsoever in trying to argue one type of creature has any more validity/legitimacy than any other.[/p][/quote]I agree with you from the perspective of say Veganism, which I am not. I know many people who are of course, but I can clearly distinct between hunting for sustenance & hunting for sport. But that get's into a far bigger ethical issue, which this is not the topic in question. Focus on this though, what are your thoughts SPECIFICALLY on Hunting for Sport. An industry with very little conservation value, all for that trophy. Here's Dr Pieter Kat's summary of a report, which focused on the economic viability of hunting > http://www.lionaid.o rg/blog/2011/04/a-so cio-economic-analysi s-of-trophy-hunting- areas.htm PaulTully
  • Score: 6

7:20pm Sun 12 Jan 14

dimreepr says...

As does the cattle in your local field.
As does the cattle in your local field. dimreepr
  • Score: -7

7:38pm Sun 12 Jan 14

dimreepr says...

My last comment was meant for Stroudworm, obviously.

Paul, you seem to vastly underestimate the value of hunting for sport, fishing for instance has improved both the sustainability and aesthetic value of the local waterways in my area. If the game hunters don’t invest locally, then their bounty will be short lived, however artificial their methods.
My last comment was meant for Stroudworm, obviously. Paul, you seem to vastly underestimate the value of hunting for sport, fishing for instance has improved both the sustainability and aesthetic value of the local waterways in my area. If the game hunters don’t invest locally, then their bounty will be short lived, however artificial their methods. dimreepr
  • Score: -9

10:02pm Sun 12 Jan 14

kjag23 says...

Yes, this business with the lions is terrible and should be stopped,
but I'm with dimreepr, most people are outraged at this but eat food from animals that have been raised and slaughtered in appalling conditions.
But because chickens/pigs aren't as cute and fluffy as lions, nobody seems to care.
If you're going to get high and mighty about lions then why not care so much about the animals that are culled for your eating pleasure.
Yes, this business with the lions is terrible and should be stopped, but I'm with dimreepr, most people are outraged at this but eat food from animals that have been raised and slaughtered in appalling conditions. But because chickens/pigs aren't as cute and fluffy as lions, nobody seems to care. If you're going to get high and mighty about lions then why not care so much about the animals that are culled for your eating pleasure. kjag23
  • Score: -2

10:04pm Sun 12 Jan 14

PaulTully says...

dimreepr wrote:
My last comment was meant for Stroudworm, obviously.

Paul, you seem to vastly underestimate the value of hunting for sport, fishing for instance has improved both the sustainability and aesthetic value of the local waterways in my area. If the game hunters don’t invest locally, then their bounty will be short lived, however artificial their methods.
you are not even focusing on the issue at hand.

Yes lets compare hunting Lion to sport fishing ... idiot!
[quote][p][bold]dimreepr[/bold] wrote: My last comment was meant for Stroudworm, obviously. Paul, you seem to vastly underestimate the value of hunting for sport, fishing for instance has improved both the sustainability and aesthetic value of the local waterways in my area. If the game hunters don’t invest locally, then their bounty will be short lived, however artificial their methods.[/p][/quote]you are not even focusing on the issue at hand. Yes lets compare hunting Lion to sport fishing ... idiot! PaulTully
  • Score: 3

10:50pm Sun 12 Jan 14

PaulTully says...

kjag23 wrote:
Yes, this business with the lions is terrible and should be stopped,
but I'm with dimreepr, most people are outraged at this but eat food from animals that have been raised and slaughtered in appalling conditions.
But because chickens/pigs aren't as cute and fluffy as lions, nobody seems to care.
If you're going to get high and mighty about lions then why not care so much about the animals that are culled for your eating pleasure.
because this is about Lions and African wildlife which has been decimated & now in such short numbers.

Do we want to see Lions wiped away? No certainly not.

I think you are discounting all the Vegans out there who are fighting the fight for all animals.

It's not about getting high and mighty, it's about saving a species! End of!
[quote][p][bold]kjag23[/bold] wrote: Yes, this business with the lions is terrible and should be stopped, but I'm with dimreepr, most people are outraged at this but eat food from animals that have been raised and slaughtered in appalling conditions. But because chickens/pigs aren't as cute and fluffy as lions, nobody seems to care. If you're going to get high and mighty about lions then why not care so much about the animals that are culled for your eating pleasure.[/p][/quote]because this is about Lions and African wildlife which has been decimated & now in such short numbers. Do we want to see Lions wiped away? No certainly not. I think you are discounting all the Vegans out there who are fighting the fight for all animals. It's not about getting high and mighty, it's about saving a species! End of! PaulTully
  • Score: 3

10:55pm Sun 12 Jan 14

PaulTully says...

kjag23 wrote:
Yes, this business with the lions is terrible and should be stopped,
but I'm with dimreepr, most people are outraged at this but eat food from animals that have been raised and slaughtered in appalling conditions.
But because chickens/pigs aren't as cute and fluffy as lions, nobody seems to care.
If you're going to get high and mighty about lions then why not care so much about the animals that are culled for your eating pleasure.
and I can certainly point you in the right direction if you wish to help other animals.

So let me know, I have plenty of links for Vegan sites, facebook pages & well worthy charities who would like your support.

But I'm here trying to help save a species, I pity those who do not recognise that.

It's also about the wider affect with poaching & wildlife trafficking, it's all linked to canned hunting.

Lion Bones are sold on the black market for example, as nonsense potions in Asia.
[quote][p][bold]kjag23[/bold] wrote: Yes, this business with the lions is terrible and should be stopped, but I'm with dimreepr, most people are outraged at this but eat food from animals that have been raised and slaughtered in appalling conditions. But because chickens/pigs aren't as cute and fluffy as lions, nobody seems to care. If you're going to get high and mighty about lions then why not care so much about the animals that are culled for your eating pleasure.[/p][/quote]and I can certainly point you in the right direction if you wish to help other animals. So let me know, I have plenty of links for Vegan sites, facebook pages & well worthy charities who would like your support. But I'm here trying to help save a species, I pity those who do not recognise that. It's also about the wider affect with poaching & wildlife trafficking, it's all linked to canned hunting. Lion Bones are sold on the black market for example, as nonsense potions in Asia. PaulTully
  • Score: 4

8:49am Mon 13 Jan 14

dimreepr says...

“you are not even focusing on the issue at hand.”

I’m not focusing on what you’ve decided is the issue at hand, however utilising the hunting revenue to improve the whole isn’t farfetched, maybe you should educate those who can have an immediate impact on the practice, rather than trying to re-educate me.

“Yes lets compare hunting Lion to sport fishing ... idiot!”

In what way is fishing not hunting? I’m happy to debate this, shame you aren’t; you do know the ad hominem is the last stand defense for those with no thoughts/ideas?
“you are not even focusing on the issue at hand.” I’m not focusing on what you’ve decided is the issue at hand, however utilising the hunting revenue to improve the whole isn’t farfetched, maybe you should educate those who can have an immediate impact on the practice, rather than trying to re-educate me. “Yes lets compare hunting Lion to sport fishing ... idiot!” In what way is fishing not hunting? I’m happy to debate this, shame you aren’t; you do know the ad hominem is the last stand defense for those with no thoughts/ideas? dimreepr
  • Score: -6

10:09am Mon 13 Jan 14

Crow says...

yes, pigs are intelligent and social...much maligned species that gets raised and turned into sausages for brief moments of pleasure.
I think the number is one hundred thousand pigs are slaughtered in the UK each day.

I think canned hunting is pretty sick though.
yes, pigs are intelligent and social...much maligned species that gets raised and turned into sausages for brief moments of pleasure. I think the number is one hundred thousand pigs are slaughtered in the UK each day. I think canned hunting is pretty sick though. Crow
  • Score: 6

10:12am Mon 13 Jan 14

A Stroud Worm says...

We should not hunt and kill animals. Fish, cattle or lion.
Not for food or sport.
We should not hunt and kill animals. Fish, cattle or lion. Not for food or sport. A Stroud Worm
  • Score: 3

2:04pm Mon 13 Jan 14

TigerTigerBurningBright says...

Comparing canned hunting to farming livestock to get a rise on a website is pretty low.
Comparing canned hunting to farming livestock to get a rise on a website is pretty low. TigerTigerBurningBright
  • Score: 7

3:25pm Mon 13 Jan 14

RobertDempsey says...

Hi dimreepr

I think the key difference is that lions are currently listed as Vulnerable on the IUCN Red List of Endangered Species and also listed on Appendix II of CITES. In other words there aren't many wild lions left.

Further, in recent years, the South African captive lion breeding and canned lion hunting industries (neither of which can sensibly be argued to have ever conceivably provided any conservation benefit) have also spawned the dangerous new trade in lion bones from South Africa to South East Asia. The evidence is now in that, upon arrival in South East Asia, those lion bones are then passed off as Tiger bones in products such as Tiger bone 'cake'.

The net result is that the unsustainable trophy hunting of wild lions IS leading to an overall reduction in wild lion numbers and the actions of many within the canned lion hunting industry are now leading to increased poaching pressure on the world's few remaining TIGERS. This is because the bones of wild tigers are preferred to the bones of captive bred tigers and the ongoing huge influx of lion bones into South East Asia stimulates, fuels and sustains demand for Tiger bone products.

Bottom line, the global marches for lions in the Spring will serve a useful purpose in terms of raising awareness of these issues in the hopes that lions will then be upgraded in terms of their protected status and in the hopes that, as a result, unsustainable hunting of the world's few remaining lions will finally be brought to an end.
Hi dimreepr I think the key difference is that lions are currently listed as Vulnerable on the IUCN Red List of Endangered Species and also listed on Appendix II of CITES. In other words there aren't many wild lions left. Further, in recent years, the South African captive lion breeding and canned lion hunting industries (neither of which can sensibly be argued to have ever conceivably provided any conservation benefit) have also spawned the dangerous new trade in lion bones from South Africa to South East Asia. The evidence is now in that, upon arrival in South East Asia, those lion bones are then passed off as Tiger bones in products such as Tiger bone 'cake'. The net result is that the unsustainable trophy hunting of wild lions IS leading to an overall reduction in wild lion numbers and the actions of many within the canned lion hunting industry are now leading to increased poaching pressure on the world's few remaining TIGERS. This is because the bones of wild tigers are preferred to the bones of captive bred tigers and the ongoing huge influx of lion bones into South East Asia stimulates, fuels and sustains demand for Tiger bone products. Bottom line, the global marches for lions in the Spring will serve a useful purpose in terms of raising awareness of these issues in the hopes that lions will then be upgraded in terms of their protected status and in the hopes that, as a result, unsustainable hunting of the world's few remaining lions will finally be brought to an end. RobertDempsey
  • Score: 12

3:35pm Mon 13 Jan 14

kjag23 says...

Paul I am vegan.
I don't want your links and quotes.
Paul I am vegan. I don't want your links and quotes. kjag23
  • Score: 1

3:49pm Mon 13 Jan 14

dimreepr says...

The only thing that amazes me about you, tiger, is your utter lack of any sense of irony.
I sincerely wish we lived in a utopian society where we live in harmony with the world on which we live our lives, a world where your steak is grown and death is a matter of choice.
We, however, live in a real world where, like it or not, the fauna and flora of this planet are exploited without mercy or forethought and the killing of animals are rampant.
My contention, given this rather unpalatable fact coupled with the historical fact that some inadequate men want to hunt for pleasure, is to focus attention on the potential positives this could bring if harnessed with some forethought; rather than dashing ones head against the wall of futility.
The only thing that amazes me about you, tiger, is your utter lack of any sense of irony. I sincerely wish we lived in a utopian society where we live in harmony with the world on which we live our lives, a world where your steak is grown and death is a matter of choice. We, however, live in a real world where, like it or not, the fauna and flora of this planet are exploited without mercy or forethought and the killing of animals are rampant. My contention, given this rather unpalatable fact coupled with the historical fact that some inadequate men want to hunt for pleasure, is to focus attention on the potential positives this could bring if harnessed with some forethought; rather than dashing ones head against the wall of futility. dimreepr
  • Score: -6

4:42pm Mon 13 Jan 14

RobertDempsey says...

dimreepr

The problem with that contention is that even if you proceed on the basis of cold hard logic, not taking into account any ethical considerations about shooting Vulnerable species for entertainment, you still have to get over the fact that all the main scientists in this area, applying the scientific method correctly and objectively, have concluded that trophy hunting of lions is currently completely unsustainable. In the circumstances, I’m interested, what ‘potential positives’ do you think ongoing trophy hunting of wild lions could bring ‘if harnessed with some forethought’?

Further, why would you think that well organised marches, in key cities around the world, on the same day, raising important awareness of the issues facing the world’s few remaining wild lions would constitute ‘dashing ones head against the wall of futility’?

The U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service is currently in the process of deciding whether or not to bring lions within the protection of the U.S. Endangered Species Act. A good turnout on 15 March 2014 could potentially help to convince them that there’s sufficient global concern about the issues facing lions to do that. If they do then there’s a good case for saying that lions could then be upgraded to CITES Appendix I and finally officially categorised as ‘Endangered’ on the IUCN Red List (like all the other big cats). In the circumstances I don’t agree that supporting these marches would be ‘dashing ones head against the wall of futility’ really.
dimreepr The problem with that contention is that even if you proceed on the basis of cold hard logic, not taking into account any ethical considerations about shooting Vulnerable species for entertainment, you still have to get over the fact that all the main scientists in this area, applying the scientific method correctly and objectively, have concluded that trophy hunting of lions is currently completely unsustainable. In the circumstances, I’m interested, what ‘potential positives’ do you think ongoing trophy hunting of wild lions could bring ‘if harnessed with some forethought’? Further, why would you think that well organised marches, in key cities around the world, on the same day, raising important awareness of the issues facing the world’s few remaining wild lions would constitute ‘dashing ones head against the wall of futility’? The U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service is currently in the process of deciding whether or not to bring lions within the protection of the U.S. Endangered Species Act. A good turnout on 15 March 2014 could potentially help to convince them that there’s sufficient global concern about the issues facing lions to do that. If they do then there’s a good case for saying that lions could then be upgraded to CITES Appendix I and finally officially categorised as ‘Endangered’ on the IUCN Red List (like all the other big cats). In the circumstances I don’t agree that supporting these marches would be ‘dashing ones head against the wall of futility’ really. RobertDempsey
  • Score: 7

4:56pm Mon 13 Jan 14

dimreepr says...

You present a good argument and I hope your correct, however, the ethical line when crossed is almost impossible to re-cross; only time will decide if you or I are correct, I only hope the null hypothesis will ensure the scientific community prepare, in case your incorrect.
You present a good argument and I hope your correct, however, the ethical line when crossed is almost impossible to re-cross; only time will decide if you or I are correct, I only hope the null hypothesis will ensure the scientific community prepare, in case your incorrect. dimreepr
  • Score: -2

7:04pm Mon 13 Jan 14

A Stroud Worm says...

dimreepr 0 - 1 Everyone else
dimreepr 0 - 1 Everyone else A Stroud Worm
  • Score: 7

7:14pm Mon 13 Jan 14

dimreepr says...

A Stroud Worm wrote:
dimreepr 0 - 1 Everyone else
Based on what?
[quote][p][bold]A Stroud Worm[/bold] wrote: dimreepr 0 - 1 Everyone else[/p][/quote]Based on what? dimreepr
  • Score: -2

1:11pm Tue 14 Jan 14

RobertDempsey says...

Hi dimreepr

I suspect that what you're inferring is that if there's no trophy hunting of lions then the income stream from the land where they're situated dries up, as a result of which the owners of the land decide to farm or develop the land instead (in which case there's no land left for the lions and they go extinct anyway). That's certainly what the the lion trophy hunting industry would have people believe. Whether that would really happen and to what extent is currently unknown. Also, even if that did happen, lions would last longer in that situation than they would if matters are allowed to continue as they are at present.

Further, common sense suggests that the problem of encouraging philanthopists to buy up tracts of land so that the last few, protected lions have some 'strongholds' where they can remain in the, albeit human defined, 'wild' would be less of a problem than the current one posed by the hugely rich and influential lion trophy hunting indsutry.
Hi dimreepr I suspect that what you're inferring is that if there's no trophy hunting of lions then the income stream from the land where they're situated dries up, as a result of which the owners of the land decide to farm or develop the land instead (in which case there's no land left for the lions and they go extinct anyway). That's certainly what the the lion trophy hunting industry would have people believe. Whether that would really happen and to what extent is currently unknown. Also, even if that did happen, lions would last longer in that situation than they would if matters are allowed to continue as they are at present. Further, common sense suggests that the problem of encouraging philanthopists to buy up tracts of land so that the last few, protected lions have some 'strongholds' where they can remain in the, albeit human defined, 'wild' would be less of a problem than the current one posed by the hugely rich and influential lion trophy hunting indsutry. RobertDempsey
  • Score: 4

6:55pm Tue 14 Jan 14

dimreepr says...

Not really, Robert, I try not to extrapolate into the future, although it’s an inevitable part of this type of debate, but the hypothesis you present, in my name, is a possibility.

No, the main thrust of my argument is based on the historical fact of, some peoples, need to hunt for pleasure and the enormous cost of conservation, especially when there’s industrial pressure on the same land; unfortunately we can’t conserve the world.

Philanthropic intervention is unlikely on the scale required, given the modern pressure on charitable needs and coupled with the de-sensitisation implicit in an overcrowded market, means the pot available grows ever smaller.

My contention is merely to manage this, yes barbaric, system with pragmatism. Lobby the government towards a workable political solution rather than an absolute ban that will, simply, be undermined by the very wealthy and well connected trophy hunters; so a short term solution doomed to fail.
If, however, they regulate the trade and ensure, through legislation, that a sustainable number are killed and the profits are directed towards land management and good animal husbandry; far easier to maintain politically and provides exclusivity which is a huge part of their interest, thus providing a sustainable system much further into the future.
Not really, Robert, I try not to extrapolate into the future, although it’s an inevitable part of this type of debate, but the hypothesis you present, in my name, is a possibility. No, the main thrust of my argument is based on the historical fact of, some peoples, need to hunt for pleasure and the enormous cost of conservation, especially when there’s industrial pressure on the same land; unfortunately we can’t conserve the world. Philanthropic intervention is unlikely on the scale required, given the modern pressure on charitable needs and coupled with the de-sensitisation implicit in an overcrowded market, means the pot available grows ever smaller. My contention is merely to manage this, yes barbaric, system with pragmatism. Lobby the government towards a workable political solution rather than an absolute ban that will, simply, be undermined by the very wealthy and well connected trophy hunters; so a short term solution doomed to fail. If, however, they regulate the trade and ensure, through legislation, that a sustainable number are killed and the profits are directed towards land management and good animal husbandry; far easier to maintain politically and provides exclusivity which is a huge part of their interest, thus providing a sustainable system much further into the future. dimreepr
  • Score: -1

6:57am Wed 15 Jan 14

VandeVenter says...

dimreepr you are obviously SUPER 'dim'.
Here is a great emotionless idea…..Go do your own field research and write your own newspaper article. Chickens, pigs, cattle and fish are not endangered, although they do raise other issues of humanitarian treatment. You must be a stupid 'rich hunter' or else you would not even be on this site attempting to debate the issue of 'cute' animals.
dimreepr you are obviously SUPER 'dim'. Here is a great emotionless idea…..Go do your own field research and write your own newspaper article. Chickens, pigs, cattle and fish are not endangered, although they do raise other issues of humanitarian treatment. You must be a stupid 'rich hunter' or else you would not even be on this site attempting to debate the issue of 'cute' animals. VandeVenter
  • Score: 0

8:38am Wed 15 Jan 14

dimreepr says...

VandeVenter
Hush now, the grown ups are talking.
VandeVenter Hush now, the grown ups are talking. dimreepr
  • Score: -2

2:44pm Wed 15 Jan 14

RobertDempsey says...

I think that contention misses that point that if the trade in lion trophies (and other parts) was prohibited under e.g. CITES, the U.S. Endangered Species Act and the EU Wildlife Trade Regulations then it wouldn’t matter how wealthy or well connected the trophy hunters were, it would be illegal for them to import their trophies back to their home countries. There might be some subsequent illegal trade (i.e. without the requisite export and / or import permits) but not to such an extent that it would make an international prohibition on commercial trade in lions ‘a short term solution doomed to fail’. This is because most of the lion trophy hunters come from countries that, by and large, comply with the provisions of CITES etc. openly and correctly.

Also, the ‘sustainable number’ notion doesn’t work. Captive bred, ‘canned’ lions are frequently, illegally, moved to countries outside of South Africa where they are then ‘hunted’ and exported as ‘wild’ lions from those countries for e.g. Safari Club International scoring purposes. That then increases the recorded number of ‘wild’ lions exported from those countries causing the officials who set their ‘sustainable number’ quotas to think they have more wild lions than is actually the case. As a result they then set or maintain their ‘sustainable number’ quotas at completely UNSUSTAINABLE levels and you then get the situation currently in the news where entire, regional populations of wild lions are subsequently discovered to actually fit the criteria for Critically Endangered (rather than merely ‘Vulnerable’).

The above, combined with other matters such as the evidence that the ‘profits’ are not being adequately ‘directed towards land management and good animal husbandry’, is precisely why the world’s foremost lion scientists have now concluded that lion trophy hunting is unsustainable.

Bottom line is that wild lions and wild tigers would both fare better if lions were upgraded to Endangered on the IUCN Red List of Endangered Species and Appendix I of CITES and if all commercial trade in lions was prohibited under international, regional and domestic laws. How much longer lions and tigers would last in the wild would have to remain to be seen but it would certainly be for a longer amount of time than carrying on as at present (or under some rhetorical, high profile, political amendment to the current status quo that would amount to words only and zero in terms of substantive difference at ground level).

Overall then, I think the Global Lion Marches on 15 March 2014 are a good initiative to be honest, well co-ordinated and placing slightly different emphasis in each of the areas where they are taking place to more accurately target these issues as they apply in each of those areas.
I think that contention misses that point that if the trade in lion trophies (and other parts) was prohibited under e.g. CITES, the U.S. Endangered Species Act and the EU Wildlife Trade Regulations then it wouldn’t matter how wealthy or well connected the trophy hunters were, it would be illegal for them to import their trophies back to their home countries. There might be some subsequent illegal trade (i.e. without the requisite export and / or import permits) but not to such an extent that it would make an international prohibition on commercial trade in lions ‘a short term solution doomed to fail’. This is because most of the lion trophy hunters come from countries that, by and large, comply with the provisions of CITES etc. openly and correctly. Also, the ‘sustainable number’ notion doesn’t work. Captive bred, ‘canned’ lions are frequently, illegally, moved to countries outside of South Africa where they are then ‘hunted’ and exported as ‘wild’ lions from those countries for e.g. Safari Club International scoring purposes. That then increases the recorded number of ‘wild’ lions exported from those countries causing the officials who set their ‘sustainable number’ quotas to think they have more wild lions than is actually the case. As a result they then set or maintain their ‘sustainable number’ quotas at completely UNSUSTAINABLE levels and you then get the situation currently in the news where entire, regional populations of wild lions are subsequently discovered to actually fit the criteria for Critically Endangered (rather than merely ‘Vulnerable’). The above, combined with other matters such as the evidence that the ‘profits’ are not being adequately ‘directed towards land management and good animal husbandry’, is precisely why the world’s foremost lion scientists have now concluded that lion trophy hunting is unsustainable. Bottom line is that wild lions and wild tigers would both fare better if lions were upgraded to Endangered on the IUCN Red List of Endangered Species and Appendix I of CITES and if all commercial trade in lions was prohibited under international, regional and domestic laws. How much longer lions and tigers would last in the wild would have to remain to be seen but it would certainly be for a longer amount of time than carrying on as at present (or under some rhetorical, high profile, political amendment to the current status quo that would amount to words only and zero in terms of substantive difference at ground level). Overall then, I think the Global Lion Marches on 15 March 2014 are a good initiative to be honest, well co-ordinated and placing slightly different emphasis in each of the areas where they are taking place to more accurately target these issues as they apply in each of those areas. RobertDempsey
  • Score: 6

7:00pm Wed 15 Jan 14

dimreepr says...

Thank you Robert for a stimulating and informative debate, I hope the protest yields results and that I’m utterly wrong, good luck.
Thank you Robert for a stimulating and informative debate, I hope the protest yields results and that I’m utterly wrong, good luck. dimreepr
  • Score: 1

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