Green Party rejects UKIP's call for show of unity against two main parties in Stroud

Green Party rejects UKIP's call for show of unity against two main parties in Stroud

UKIP's parliamentary candidate Caroline Stephens has called for The Green Party and UKIP to 'temporarily set aside their differences'

But the Green Party's parliamentary candidate Chris Jockel has dismissed the idea, labelling UKIP's policies 'xenophobic'

First published in News
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UKIP’S parliamentary candidate Caroline Stephens has issued an unusual call for The Green Party and UKIP to ‘temporarily set aside their differences’ in order to show Stroud voters that there are genuine alternatives to Labour and The Conservative Party.

Despite residing at opposite ends of the political spectrum, with the Greens on the left and UKIP on the right, Mrs Stephens believes they should present a united front in order to break the stranglehold of the two main parties over the constituency.

Mrs Stephens seized on comments made last week by the Green Party MEP Molly Scott Cato following a poll by Lord Ashcroft that showed both UKIP and the Greens could expect to receive 11 per cent of the vote share at the next general election.

Drawing attention to Dr Scott Cato’s assertion that the Stroud constituency is now ‘a four-way split’ in terms of the vote, Mrs Stephens said: “I am absolutely thrilled and delighted that Green MEP Molly Scott-Cato has now confirmed that Stroud is a four horse race and that therefore UKIP has every chance of winning the seat.

“It is up to the Green Party and UKIP to both temporarily set aside their differences, disavow the Labour/Tory duopoly which has prevailed for far too many years here in Stroud, and to show Stroud's voters that they truly have a real alternative to the cosy and self serving consensus of the two big and discredited legacy parties.”

However, the statistics revealed by Lord Ashcroft’s poll would seem to contradict the view that either UKIP or the Greens could spring a surprise and claim the Stroud seat next May.

According to the Tory donor’s survey of prospective Stroud voters, the Conservatives can expect to receive around three times as many votes as either of the two smaller parties, while Labour appears set to capture four times as many as either the Greens or UKIP, placing them well ahead of the pack and currently on course for victory in the key battleground constituency.

On Tuesday, UKIP suffered a further blow as Green politicians rejected Mrs Stephens’ offer of a unity pact and queued up to denounce the party.

While acknowledging that the two parties did share a “recognition of the failure of the current mainstream political parties to represent and engage ordinary people”, the Green’s parliamentary candidate Chris Jockel insisted the common ground ended there.

“We believe UKIP promote a message of fear, division and potentially hatred born of a superficial, lazy and ultimately dishonest analysis of the national and local situation,” he said.

"Up and down the country, the Greens are often the only party openly challenging UKIP's xenophobic, far-right libertarian policies, rather than pandering to them.

Meanwhile, Green MEP Molly Scott Cato, said: “UKIP's candidate seems to subscribe to the adage that 'My enemy's enemy is my friend' but I have to tell her that the Greens choose their friends with more care than that.

“As a party dedicated to tolerance we would never be able to work with a party that trades in the politics of fear.”

Comments (67)

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11:12am Tue 2 Sep 14

VoteUKIPGetUKIP says...

Well all Caroline was saying was that it is great that Molly is on record as saying Stroud was a four horse race.

It is a shame that the Greens have clearly knee jerked and not taken this observation in the spirit in which it was intended, and that they have reverted to the outrageous and unfounded anti UKIP slurs in which they engaged during the Valley by election.

Stroud Labour on the other hand, who unlike the Green Party behaved entirely professionally and respectfully during the Valley by election, have observed on their website that there was a large backlog of constituency casework unmet in Valley due to Molly's lack of attention to the ward during her tenure as an SDC councillor there.

This was also the experience of UKIP canvassers in Valley.

I hope that Molly applies herself more fully on Stroud's behalf in the European Parliament than clearly was the case on SDC.

She would be better employed doing that than in making scurrilous statements of the kind detailed in this report.

Increasingly, especially after the Clacton by election and further defections of both Labour and Tory MPs in the House of Commons, UKIP will gain further momentum and will be the only viable alternative to Labour, David Drew and most importantly the only alternative to the ridiculous Ed Miliband in Stroud come the General Election as the Conservatives just cannot win the seat.
Well all Caroline was saying was that it is great that Molly is on record as saying Stroud was a four horse race. It is a shame that the Greens have clearly knee jerked and not taken this observation in the spirit in which it was intended, and that they have reverted to the outrageous and unfounded anti UKIP slurs in which they engaged during the Valley by election. Stroud Labour on the other hand, who unlike the Green Party behaved entirely professionally and respectfully during the Valley by election, have observed on their website that there was a large backlog of constituency casework unmet in Valley due to Molly's lack of attention to the ward during her tenure as an SDC councillor there. This was also the experience of UKIP canvassers in Valley. I hope that Molly applies herself more fully on Stroud's behalf in the European Parliament than clearly was the case on SDC. She would be better employed doing that than in making scurrilous statements of the kind detailed in this report. Increasingly, especially after the Clacton by election and further defections of both Labour and Tory MPs in the House of Commons, UKIP will gain further momentum and will be the only viable alternative to Labour, David Drew and most importantly the only alternative to the ridiculous Ed Miliband in Stroud come the General Election as the Conservatives just cannot win the seat. VoteUKIPGetUKIP
  • Score: -18

12:32pm Tue 2 Sep 14

JulianCBrown says...

How on earth can the UKIP candidate for Stroud (parachuted in from Wiltshire I note because no-one from Stroud was prepared to align themselves publicly with Farage's rabble) realistically expect the Green Party to align itself to a racist party which wants to privatise the NHS, bring back hunting with hounds, relax the smoking ban, introduce a standard rate of income tax for all whether rich or poor etc. etc.

UKIP is not just a party of "fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists" but a very nasty stain on the British political landscape. Men and women died during the last war to protect us from the evils of the extreme right. The rise of UKIP is an affront to their sacrifice.

There is only one way to defeat the Tories in Stroud and rid us of the lapdog MP Carbuncle and that is a vote for David Drew.
How on earth can the UKIP candidate for Stroud (parachuted in from Wiltshire I note because no-one from Stroud was prepared to align themselves publicly with Farage's rabble) realistically expect the Green Party to align itself to a racist party which wants to privatise the NHS, bring back hunting with hounds, relax the smoking ban, introduce a standard rate of income tax for all whether rich or poor etc. etc. UKIP is not just a party of "fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists" but a very nasty stain on the British political landscape. Men and women died during the last war to protect us from the evils of the extreme right. The rise of UKIP is an affront to their sacrifice. There is only one way to defeat the Tories in Stroud and rid us of the lapdog MP Carbuncle and that is a vote for David Drew. JulianCBrown
  • Score: 10

12:58pm Tue 2 Sep 14

VoteUKIPGetUKIP says...

I note that many in the Labour Party and elsewhere on the Left in the 1930s supported the Nazi-Soviet pact which supplied Hitler with war materiel and allowed both him and the Soviet Union to divide Poland.

They only supported the UK when Stalin told them to after Hitler attacked the Soviet Union.

On the other hand many of the remaining WW2 veterans and heroes are members of UKIP, as are veterans and heroes of more recent conflicts.

By the way. Both Hitler and Mussolini started their political careers as socialists, and the full name of the Nazi party is the National Socialist Getman Workers' Party.

All the above are established historical facts.

UKiP does not need history lessons or lessons in patriotism from jaded Labour hacks.

Let the facts speak for themselves.
I note that many in the Labour Party and elsewhere on the Left in the 1930s supported the Nazi-Soviet pact which supplied Hitler with war materiel and allowed both him and the Soviet Union to divide Poland. They only supported the UK when Stalin told them to after Hitler attacked the Soviet Union. On the other hand many of the remaining WW2 veterans and heroes are members of UKIP, as are veterans and heroes of more recent conflicts. By the way. Both Hitler and Mussolini started their political careers as socialists, and the full name of the Nazi party is the National Socialist Getman Workers' Party. All the above are established historical facts. UKiP does not need history lessons or lessons in patriotism from jaded Labour hacks. Let the facts speak for themselves. VoteUKIPGetUKIP
  • Score: -11

3:01pm Tue 2 Sep 14

JulianCBrown says...

This great country of ours has a proud background of tolerance, multiculturalism and caring for those less fortunate than ourselves.

UKIP is a grubby excuse for a political party which thrives on fear, hatred, dislike of anything which is not the "norm", racism and the promotion of a privileged elite.

I have never yet met a UKIP supporter who I would want as a neighbour!
This great country of ours has a proud background of tolerance, multiculturalism and caring for those less fortunate than ourselves. UKIP is a grubby excuse for a political party which thrives on fear, hatred, dislike of anything which is not the "norm", racism and the promotion of a privileged elite. I have never yet met a UKIP supporter who I would want as a neighbour! JulianCBrown
  • Score: 11

3:29pm Tue 2 Sep 14

VoteUKIPGetUKIP says...

Julian Brown just doesn't get it, does he ?

It seems to me that if anyone can be accused of prejudice it is him !

Is he related to that outstandingly successful Prime Minister Gordon Brown , by any chance. You know, the guy who busted the country along
with the Comedy Double Act of the two Eds, who now seek to be PM and Chancellor.

Does he support Gordon's predecessor the war criminal Blair, who took the country into an illegal war based on a lie, without UN authority and as the lickspittle of George W Bush, one of the most extreme US presidents ever ?

That is the track record of the Labour Party in Government.

UKIP supports neither illegal foreign wars nor excessive financial deregulation.

FACT.

Labour, Mr Brown's party, implemented both policies in office.

FACT.

And Mr Brown expects the voters of Stroud to place their trust and confidence in these jokers once again ?

REALLY ?
Julian Brown just doesn't get it, does he ? It seems to me that if anyone can be accused of prejudice it is him ! Is he related to that outstandingly successful Prime Minister Gordon Brown , by any chance. You know, the guy who busted the country along with the Comedy Double Act of the two Eds, who now seek to be PM and Chancellor. Does he support Gordon's predecessor the war criminal Blair, who took the country into an illegal war based on a lie, without UN authority and as the lickspittle of George W Bush, one of the most extreme US presidents ever ? That is the track record of the Labour Party in Government. UKIP supports neither illegal foreign wars nor excessive financial deregulation. FACT. Labour, Mr Brown's party, implemented both policies in office. FACT. And Mr Brown expects the voters of Stroud to place their trust and confidence in these jokers once again ? REALLY ? VoteUKIPGetUKIP
  • Score: -6

4:08pm Tue 2 Sep 14

JulianCBrown says...

Mr (or Mrs?) VoteUKIPGetUKIP has the audacity to call a political party "jokers". Let's just refresh our memories of some recent UKIP statements:

1) Small businesses should not employ women of child-bearing age.
2) Women should always have dinner on the table when a man gets home.
3) UK should not send aid to "Bongo Bongo Land".
4) Foetuses with Downs Syndrome or Spina Bifida should be aborted.
5) Homosexuality is "not normal".
6) Women should not wear trousers.
7) Immigrants are "sandal-wearing, bomb-making, camel-riding, goat-f...... ragheads".
8) Lenny Henry should be repatriated to a black country.
9) Businesses should be allowed to refuse services to women and gay people.
10) The UK storms and flooding was caused by the gay marriage laws.
11) "Working mothers are worth less than men" (Nigel Farage).
12) There should be compulsory uniforms for taxi drivers.
13) MPs should have more freedom with their expense claims.
14) There is no such thing as climate change.

It is evident that not only is UKIP a joke but it is a seriously nasty joke with a deep dislike of women.

No-one in their right minds, when confronted with their "policies", could vote for such a bunch of slimeballs!
Mr (or Mrs?) VoteUKIPGetUKIP has the audacity to call a political party "jokers". Let's just refresh our memories of some recent UKIP statements: 1) Small businesses should not employ women of child-bearing age. 2) Women should always have dinner on the table when a man gets home. 3) UK should not send aid to "Bongo Bongo Land". 4) Foetuses with Downs Syndrome or Spina Bifida should be aborted. 5) Homosexuality is "not normal". 6) Women should not wear trousers. 7) Immigrants are "sandal-wearing, bomb-making, camel-riding, goat-f...... ragheads". 8) Lenny Henry should be repatriated to a black country. 9) Businesses should be allowed to refuse services to women and gay people. 10) The UK storms and flooding was caused by the gay marriage laws. 11) "Working mothers are worth less than men" (Nigel Farage). 12) There should be compulsory uniforms for taxi drivers. 13) MPs should have more freedom with their expense claims. 14) There is no such thing as climate change. It is evident that not only is UKIP a joke but it is a seriously nasty joke with a deep dislike of women. No-one in their right minds, when confronted with their "policies", could vote for such a bunch of slimeballs! JulianCBrown
  • Score: 12

4:30pm Tue 2 Sep 14

VoteUKIPGetUKIP says...

As usual Mr Brown is economical with the truth and full of spin.

Some of these comments were made by a former UKIP MEP, some by councillor candidates, some probably not at all.

I was going to go through the litany of Lab/Lib/Con list of renegade Councillors and MPs, but frankly the list is too long.

Apart from those currently under investigation for child abuse there are the former MP for Rotherham and, for Scunthorpe both Labour who are in prison,although the Scunthorpe one might be out now.

There's Cyril Smith and Chris Huhne and Mike Hancock for the Lib Dems

And Jeffrey Archer and Jonathan Aitken and The peer Lord Hadingfield from Essex for the Tories.

And loads more if I could be bothered to think of them.

That is without going through all the nutty and outrageous comments made by Lab/Lib/Con Councillors.

The difference is that both Mr Brown and I know that in none of these cases were these crimes and misdemeanours the policy of any party Whether Labour/Liberal/Conse
rvative or UKIP

I would never stoop so low as to maintain that these were ever the policies of the other parties, and the fact that he seeks to claim that that these were official UKIP policies rather than countering the arguments in my earlier posts shows to me how little confidenceMr Brown has in his own arguments and in his own party.

I won't be responding to any more posts from Mr Brown as is very boring
and clearly has nothing of any consequence to say, otherwise he would have said it by now.
As usual Mr Brown is economical with the truth and full of spin. Some of these comments were made by a former UKIP MEP, some by councillor candidates, some probably not at all. I was going to go through the litany of Lab/Lib/Con list of renegade Councillors and MPs, but frankly the list is too long. Apart from those currently under investigation for child abuse there are the former MP for Rotherham and, for Scunthorpe both Labour who are in prison,although the Scunthorpe one might be out now. There's Cyril Smith and Chris Huhne and Mike Hancock for the Lib Dems And Jeffrey Archer and Jonathan Aitken and The peer Lord Hadingfield from Essex for the Tories. And loads more if I could be bothered to think of them. That is without going through all the nutty and outrageous comments made by Lab/Lib/Con Councillors. The difference is that both Mr Brown and I know that in none of these cases were these crimes and misdemeanours the policy of any party Whether Labour/Liberal/Conse rvative or UKIP I would never stoop so low as to maintain that these were ever the policies of the other parties, and the fact that he seeks to claim that that these were official UKIP policies rather than countering the arguments in my earlier posts shows to me how little confidenceMr Brown has in his own arguments and in his own party. I won't be responding to any more posts from Mr Brown as is very boring and clearly has nothing of any consequence to say, otherwise he would have said it by now. VoteUKIPGetUKIP
  • Score: 0

5:30pm Tue 2 Sep 14

JulianCBrown says...

Whoopee! No more UK nastiness!
Whoopee! No more UK nastiness! JulianCBrown
  • Score: 3

5:34pm Tue 2 Sep 14

VoteUKIPGetUKIP says...

Grow up and get a life
Grow up and get a life VoteUKIPGetUKIP
  • Score: -4

6:20pm Tue 2 Sep 14

Rhyfelwyr says...

'VoteUKIPGetUKIP' has been comprehensively owned in this thread. There is no way on earth that UKIP are going to do anything of note in Stroud. The people of Stroud have *much* more sense than that.
'VoteUKIPGetUKIP' has been comprehensively owned in this thread. There is no way on earth that UKIP are going to do anything of note in Stroud. The people of Stroud have *much* more sense than that. Rhyfelwyr
  • Score: 7

6:47pm Tue 2 Sep 14

VoteUKIPGetUKIP says...

Ok well I don't know if you are Green or Labour, but why don't you try answering some of the hard facts and valid points raised above instead of making bald and unsubstantiated statements which are backed up by nothing other than party prejudice ?
Ok well I don't know if you are Green or Labour, but why don't you try answering some of the hard facts and valid points raised above instead of making bald and unsubstantiated statements which are backed up by nothing other than party prejudice ? VoteUKIPGetUKIP
  • Score: 7

7:07pm Tue 2 Sep 14

Donuts r Ace says...

JulianCBrown wrote:
This great country of ours has a proud background of tolerance, multiculturalism and caring for those less fortunate than ourselves.

UKIP is a grubby excuse for a political party which thrives on fear, hatred, dislike of anything which is not the "norm", racism and the promotion of a privileged elite.

I have never yet met a UKIP supporter who I would want as a neighbour!
I have never yet met a UKIP supporter who I would want as a neighbour!

So much for tolerance then , deary me.
[quote][p][bold]JulianCBrown[/bold] wrote: This great country of ours has a proud background of tolerance, multiculturalism and caring for those less fortunate than ourselves. UKIP is a grubby excuse for a political party which thrives on fear, hatred, dislike of anything which is not the "norm", racism and the promotion of a privileged elite. I have never yet met a UKIP supporter who I would want as a neighbour![/p][/quote]I have never yet met a UKIP supporter who I would want as a neighbour! So much for tolerance then , deary me. Donuts r Ace
  • Score: 6

7:37pm Tue 2 Sep 14

Donuts r Ace says...

Far from being owned , the ukip poster has been generally insulted and answered by the usual ill-informed type of of repsonse one usually sees on website BBs with regard to politics in general. Anyone can cut and paste a list of statements from various parties, how about discussing policy?
You say your against privatisation of the NHS , so what do you think Labours PFI initiative was all about? Apart from keeping spending off the books and most projects costing 3-4 times original cost of course.
Far from being owned , the ukip poster has been generally insulted and answered by the usual ill-informed type of of repsonse one usually sees on website BBs with regard to politics in general. Anyone can cut and paste a list of statements from various parties, how about discussing policy? You say your against privatisation of the NHS , so what do you think Labours PFI initiative was all about? Apart from keeping spending off the books and most projects costing 3-4 times original cost of course. Donuts r Ace
  • Score: 9

7:52pm Tue 2 Sep 14

Donuts r Ace says...

As I expected , no response to real questions , just thumbs down.
Shame really , could be good discussion , what ever party you vote for.

Ho hum
As I expected , no response to real questions , just thumbs down. Shame really , could be good discussion , what ever party you vote for. Ho hum Donuts r Ace
  • Score: 9

7:53pm Tue 2 Sep 14

Cuthbert Thickett says...

I may be mistaken, but didn't UKIP tell their supporters to vote for David Drew last time and the time before that?

An alliance between Caroline Stephens and the Greens? given what she said recently about global warming etc, I think that its a bit rich taking a stand on principles if you don't have any.
I may be mistaken, but didn't UKIP tell their supporters to vote for David Drew last time and the time before that? An alliance between Caroline Stephens and the Greens? given what she said recently about global warming etc, I think that its a bit rich taking a stand on principles if you don't have any. Cuthbert Thickett
  • Score: -13

8:40pm Tue 2 Sep 14

VoteUKIPGetUKIP says...

Cuthbert

Caroline didn't say she wanted an alliance with the Greens.

Why would she ?Unlike the Greens UKIP are a national party, and they won the UK's most recent national election hands down.

What she in fact said was that the Greens and UKIP had a common interest in exposing the cosy Labour/Tory duopoly in Stroud in terms of the parliamentary seat.

This comment was then misrepresented and it met with an hysterical overreaction from Molly and other Green office holders in Stroud.

The only conclusion therefore is that the Greens are for some reason happy with the Labour/Conservative pendulum and Tweedledum/Tweedlede
e arrangement in both Stroud and at Westminster.
Cuthbert Caroline didn't say she wanted an alliance with the Greens. Why would she ?Unlike the Greens UKIP are a national party, and they won the UK's most recent national election hands down. What she in fact said was that the Greens and UKIP had a common interest in exposing the cosy Labour/Tory duopoly in Stroud in terms of the parliamentary seat. This comment was then misrepresented and it met with an hysterical overreaction from Molly and other Green office holders in Stroud. The only conclusion therefore is that the Greens are for some reason happy with the Labour/Conservative pendulum and Tweedledum/Tweedlede e arrangement in both Stroud and at Westminster. VoteUKIPGetUKIP
  • Score: 3

9:23pm Tue 2 Sep 14

Rhyfelwyr says...

'Unlike the Greens, UKIP are a national party'

This is the Green Party, who have representation in the Scottish Govt, Westminster, Europe and the London Assembly? The ones with councillors in Scotland as well? (A mere 14 there mind).

Yes, I can see how that works.
'Unlike the Greens, UKIP are a national party' This is the Green Party, who have representation in the Scottish Govt, Westminster, Europe and the London Assembly? The ones with councillors in Scotland as well? (A mere 14 there mind). Yes, I can see how that works. Rhyfelwyr
  • Score: 0

9:59pm Tue 2 Sep 14

VoteUKIPGetUKIP says...

Yes and they control the Council in Brighton and Hove and are currently in the process of destroying that great city in much the same way that Militant Tendency brought the great city of Liverpool to its knees back in the 1980s.

They would like to do the same thing in Stroud, and UKIP urgently needs to prevent that happening by taking seats on SDC.

By the way the Greens are in the Scottish Parliament, not Government, and given the Greens' lamentable performance on Brighton Council they will almost certainly lose their single MP (for a Brighton seat) at Westminster come the General Election.

Oh dear, bye bye Caroline Lucas.
Yes and they control the Council in Brighton and Hove and are currently in the process of destroying that great city in much the same way that Militant Tendency brought the great city of Liverpool to its knees back in the 1980s. They would like to do the same thing in Stroud, and UKIP urgently needs to prevent that happening by taking seats on SDC. By the way the Greens are in the Scottish Parliament, not Government, and given the Greens' lamentable performance on Brighton Council they will almost certainly lose their single MP (for a Brighton seat) at Westminster come the General Election. Oh dear, bye bye Caroline Lucas. VoteUKIPGetUKIP
  • Score: 0

11:41pm Tue 2 Sep 14

Rhyfelwyr says...

Remind me of your record in running councils in the UK again?

Oh, wait. You can't. You're not in control of any.

What was that bit about a 'national party' again?
Remind me of your record in running councils in the UK again? Oh, wait. You can't. You're not in control of any. What was that bit about a 'national party' again? Rhyfelwyr
  • Score: 2

6:10am Wed 3 Sep 14

VoteUKIPGetUKIP says...

Well I am sure it will not be too long before Green controlled Brighton Council enters special measures.

As regards being a national party unlike the Greens UKIP won a national election.

In the European Parliament election UKIP polled four times as many votes as the Greens and pushed Labour and Conservative into second and third place respectively.

It has more MEPs than any other party, with MEPs in each of England, Scotland and Wales.

It has over 350 district and county Councillors throughout the whole UK.

It has members of the House of Commons, House of Lords and Northern Ireland Assembly.

Most importantly it is the fastest growing political party throughout the whole UK.

A national party, I believe, not a ragtag hot air do nothing talking shop concentrated in Brighton, Stroud and almost nowhere else like the Greens.
Well I am sure it will not be too long before Green controlled Brighton Council enters special measures. As regards being a national party unlike the Greens UKIP won a national election. In the European Parliament election UKIP polled four times as many votes as the Greens and pushed Labour and Conservative into second and third place respectively. It has more MEPs than any other party, with MEPs in each of England, Scotland and Wales. It has over 350 district and county Councillors throughout the whole UK. It has members of the House of Commons, House of Lords and Northern Ireland Assembly. Most importantly it is the fastest growing political party throughout the whole UK. A national party, I believe, not a ragtag hot air do nothing talking shop concentrated in Brighton, Stroud and almost nowhere else like the Greens. VoteUKIPGetUKIP
  • Score: -2

7:43am Wed 3 Sep 14

Rhyfelwyr says...

You didn't 'win a national election' . You got a slight majority of votes over the next largest party in our part of a European one, characterised by voter apathy and low turn-out (and hence unrepresentative), giving you 24 MEP's. The other parties have 49. In no way, shape or form does this give you a majority of MEP's, even if such a thing made a difference (which it does not - and doubly so since yours don't seem to do anything of note.)

It has 360 councillors. About 15% or so of the number of Lib Dem councillors, and they're in the doldrums at present.

You don't have a member of the House of Commons. You have someone who has crossed the floor and resigned. You might pick him up in the forthcoming by-election, but the Greens? Got someone elected to the Commons in a General Election. Which you've signally failed to do.

As regards the Lords? You've one more peer than Plaid Cymru. And they're only active in Wales.

Face it. You have slightly more representation than the Green Party, and achieve less. You can blow yourselves up all you like, but ultimately? Picking up one or two representatives here or there will not win you the elections that matter. You need to be challenging the mainstream parties. We'll find out how much of a challenge you represent next May. Until then? It's largely speculation.
You didn't 'win a national election' . You got a slight majority of votes over the next largest party in our part of a European one, characterised by voter apathy and low turn-out (and hence unrepresentative), giving you 24 MEP's. The other parties have 49. In no way, shape or form does this give you a majority of MEP's, even if such a thing made a difference (which it does not - and doubly so since yours don't seem to do anything of note.) It has 360 councillors. About 15% or so of the number of Lib Dem councillors, and they're in the doldrums at present. You don't have a member of the House of Commons. You have someone who has crossed the floor and resigned. You might pick him up in the forthcoming by-election, but the Greens? Got someone elected to the Commons in a General Election. Which you've signally failed to do. As regards the Lords? You've one more peer than Plaid Cymru. And they're only active in Wales. Face it. You have slightly more representation than the Green Party, and achieve less. You can blow yourselves up all you like, but ultimately? Picking up one or two representatives here or there will not win you the elections that matter. You need to be challenging the mainstream parties. We'll find out how much of a challenge you represent next May. Until then? It's largely speculation. Rhyfelwyr
  • Score: -2

8:18am Wed 3 Sep 14

VoteUKIPGetUKIP says...

Well it just shows the Greens' attitude to democracy that they cannot stomach the fact that a Party they do not agree with polled the
largest single number of votes -- well over 4 million --- in a national election.

Stalin would be proud of you.

As regards Westminster. Douglas Carswell will almost certainly be returned as the first UKIP elected MP in the Clacton by election and he will be followed by others in the General Election. The Greens will lose their deposit in Clacton.

The ridiculous Green MP Caroline Lucas will be sent packing in May by her long suffering Brighton constituents.

I am not responding to you any more as you are clearly closed minded and I have better things to do.
Well it just shows the Greens' attitude to democracy that they cannot stomach the fact that a Party they do not agree with polled the largest single number of votes -- well over 4 million --- in a national election. Stalin would be proud of you. As regards Westminster. Douglas Carswell will almost certainly be returned as the first UKIP elected MP in the Clacton by election and he will be followed by others in the General Election. The Greens will lose their deposit in Clacton. The ridiculous Green MP Caroline Lucas will be sent packing in May by her long suffering Brighton constituents. I am not responding to you any more as you are clearly closed minded and I have better things to do. VoteUKIPGetUKIP
  • Score: 2

8:30am Wed 3 Sep 14

JulianCBrown says...

My reason for despising UKIP is that it is a party founded on hate. Its dogma flies against everything that is good about Britain - our tolerance, our acceptance of people of other races, creeds and colours and our innate sense of fair play.

UKIP has seized on the issue of the EU and then twisted their stance on this particular topic to vent their spleen on non-white people, gay people, women, the poor etc.

It is a very sad situation that so many people seem to have been taken in by the suave, slimy Nigel Farage and his cohorts. It is very reminiscent of the growth of the Blackshirt movement in Britain in the 1930s and the spread of fascism in Germany and Italy.

You only have to read the utterances which regularly come from UKIP sources, some of which I printed in a previous post above, to realise their true, ultra right wing colours.

Even one single vote for a UKIP candidate would be a shameful occurrence. I hope and believe that the British public will see through the facade of this evil "party" before the next election.
My reason for despising UKIP is that it is a party founded on hate. Its dogma flies against everything that is good about Britain - our tolerance, our acceptance of people of other races, creeds and colours and our innate sense of fair play. UKIP has seized on the issue of the EU and then twisted their stance on this particular topic to vent their spleen on non-white people, gay people, women, the poor etc. It is a very sad situation that so many people seem to have been taken in by the suave, slimy Nigel Farage and his cohorts. It is very reminiscent of the growth of the Blackshirt movement in Britain in the 1930s and the spread of fascism in Germany and Italy. You only have to read the utterances which regularly come from UKIP sources, some of which I printed in a previous post above, to realise their true, ultra right wing colours. Even one single vote for a UKIP candidate would be a shameful occurrence. I hope and believe that the British public will see through the facade of this evil "party" before the next election. JulianCBrown
  • Score: 1

9:00am Wed 3 Sep 14

VoteUKIPGetUKIP says...

Innate sense of fair play ?

You mean like illegally invading a sovereign nation on a false pretext without UN endorsement as was done by your former leader the war criminal Blair ?

I am waiting for him to be sent to The Hague and indicted for his crimes.

Unfortunately the poor prisoners now awaiting decapitation by Islamic State will not be around that long.

Shame on you , you absolute hypocrite !
Innate sense of fair play ? You mean like illegally invading a sovereign nation on a false pretext without UN endorsement as was done by your former leader the war criminal Blair ? I am waiting for him to be sent to The Hague and indicted for his crimes. Unfortunately the poor prisoners now awaiting decapitation by Islamic State will not be around that long. Shame on you , you absolute hypocrite ! VoteUKIPGetUKIP
  • Score: 3

6:47pm Wed 3 Sep 14

Rhyfelwyr says...

It wasn't a 'national' election. It was a European election. Who are UKIP aligned with in Europe again?

Ah yes. That's it. 'EFDD'. With 48 members out of 751. Who else makes up this group?

Well, we have the 'Party of Free Citizens' (1 MEP out of 21 in Czechoslovakia). A libertarian anti-European party.

We have Joelle Bergeron, a French Independent. Former member of the National Front.

We have the Italian 'Five Star' movement. 17 MEP's out of 73 in Italy. A populist euro-sceptic party. I can't see them sticking with you long mind. They've pro-environmental opinions...

We have one MEP from the Latvian Farmers Union. Centrist, agrarian. 1 from 8 elected by Latvia.

We have 2 MEP's from Lithuania. From 11 elected. From the 'Order and Justice' party. Right wing, libertarian.

2 out of 20 elected in Sweden by the 'Swedish Democrats'. Right wing, anti-immigration.

The Greens? Are members of a group with 50 MEP's, btw.

So the group you're in? Is marginally less important than the group that the Greens are in. Well done you!
It wasn't a 'national' election. It was a European election. Who are UKIP aligned with in Europe again? Ah yes. That's it. 'EFDD'. With 48 members out of 751. Who else makes up this group? Well, we have the 'Party of Free Citizens' (1 MEP out of 21 in Czechoslovakia). A libertarian anti-European party. We have Joelle Bergeron, a French Independent. Former member of the National Front. We have the Italian 'Five Star' movement. 17 MEP's out of 73 in Italy. A populist euro-sceptic party. I can't see them sticking with you long mind. They've pro-environmental opinions... We have one MEP from the Latvian Farmers Union. Centrist, agrarian. 1 from 8 elected by Latvia. We have 2 MEP's from Lithuania. From 11 elected. From the 'Order and Justice' party. Right wing, libertarian. 2 out of 20 elected in Sweden by the 'Swedish Democrats'. Right wing, anti-immigration. The Greens? Are members of a group with 50 MEP's, btw. So the group you're in? Is marginally less important than the group that the Greens are in. Well done you! Rhyfelwyr
  • Score: 4

7:00pm Wed 3 Sep 14

JulianCBrown says...

VoteUKIPGetUKIP wrote:
Innate sense of fair play ?

You mean like illegally invading a sovereign nation on a false pretext without UN endorsement as was done by your former leader the war criminal Blair ?

I am waiting for him to be sent to The Hague and indicted for his crimes.

Unfortunately the poor prisoners now awaiting decapitation by Islamic State will not be around that long.

Shame on you , you absolute hypocrite !
The "innate sense of fair play" that I referred to was that of the British people, not one particular group. Do you not agree that fair play is an attractive British trait?

How about talking about the number of ex-members of the EDL and BNP who are now comfortably ensconced within UKIP? Is that not an affront to the generation which fought fascism between 1939 and 1945?

P.S. I thought that you were not going to reply to any more of my posts?
[quote][p][bold]VoteUKIPGetUKIP[/bold] wrote: Innate sense of fair play ? You mean like illegally invading a sovereign nation on a false pretext without UN endorsement as was done by your former leader the war criminal Blair ? I am waiting for him to be sent to The Hague and indicted for his crimes. Unfortunately the poor prisoners now awaiting decapitation by Islamic State will not be around that long. Shame on you , you absolute hypocrite ![/p][/quote]The "innate sense of fair play" that I referred to was that of the British people, not one particular group. Do you not agree that fair play is an attractive British trait? How about talking about the number of ex-members of the EDL and BNP who are now comfortably ensconced within UKIP? Is that not an affront to the generation which fought fascism between 1939 and 1945? P.S. I thought that you were not going to reply to any more of my posts? JulianCBrown
  • Score: 5

7:07pm Wed 3 Sep 14

VoteUKIPGetUKIP says...

Why is it that you just cannot accept that in the European elections UKIP topped the poll and got 4 x as many votes as the Greens ?

In fact Molly Scott Cato would not have won her seat had it not been for the spoiling tactics of a former UKIP MEP.

The Groups in the European Parliament matter little and are largely for funding purposes.

The Tories are in bed with some very unsavoury parties from Denmark, Finland and Latvia.

The Nordic Green Left are in bed with Sinn Fein IRA who murdered so many British soldiers and civilians.

I am sorry but you need to wake up and smell the coffee.

Whether you like it or not UKIP are here to stay and are growing exponentially.

Come the General Election the Greens will lose their existing one seat and will poll less votes than both the Lib Dems and the SNP.
Why is it that you just cannot accept that in the European elections UKIP topped the poll and got 4 x as many votes as the Greens ? In fact Molly Scott Cato would not have won her seat had it not been for the spoiling tactics of a former UKIP MEP. The Groups in the European Parliament matter little and are largely for funding purposes. The Tories are in bed with some very unsavoury parties from Denmark, Finland and Latvia. The Nordic Green Left are in bed with Sinn Fein IRA who murdered so many British soldiers and civilians. I am sorry but you need to wake up and smell the coffee. Whether you like it or not UKIP are here to stay and are growing exponentially. Come the General Election the Greens will lose their existing one seat and will poll less votes than both the Lib Dems and the SNP. VoteUKIPGetUKIP
  • Score: -1

7:13pm Wed 3 Sep 14

VoteUKIPGetUKIP says...

Julian you are talking rubbish as usual.

UKIP is the only political party in the UK which prevents former BNP members from joining.

Unfortunately I have to reply to your posts as I cannot leave such errant and misleading nonsense uncorrected.
Julian you are talking rubbish as usual. UKIP is the only political party in the UK which prevents former BNP members from joining. Unfortunately I have to reply to your posts as I cannot leave such errant and misleading nonsense uncorrected. VoteUKIPGetUKIP
  • Score: -1

11:06pm Wed 3 Sep 14

JulianCBrown says...

UKIP = racist bigots.
UKIP = racist bigots. JulianCBrown
  • Score: 1

11:11pm Wed 3 Sep 14

Rhyfelwyr says...

It doesn't matter how many MEP's UKIP got in an election in which the British population weren't particularly interested. It's axiomatic that only around 10% of the electorate voted for them. It's not much of a mandate. It's also axiomatic that they are now reluctant participants in a small grouping in a much larger body which will get by quite well without them. As much as you yap and jump up and down? You're not the biggest dog in the park by any means :-)
It doesn't matter how many MEP's UKIP got in an election in which the British population weren't particularly interested. It's axiomatic that only around 10% of the electorate voted for them. It's not much of a mandate. It's also axiomatic that they are now reluctant participants in a small grouping in a much larger body which will get by quite well without them. As much as you yap and jump up and down? You're not the biggest dog in the park by any means :-) Rhyfelwyr
  • Score: 3

8:01am Thu 4 Sep 14

JulianCBrown says...

I have always been quite proud to be British. We do not always get things right and our past is littered with wrongdoing and bad judgements BUT we have grown up, we have realised the errors of our old ways and we have become a nicer bunch of people.

Then along comes UKIP with its divisive hate policies and I feel that we have taken a huge step backwards. The so-called "rise" of UKIP makes me feel quite ashamed of my country but I am confident that UKIP will soon crawl back under the stone from which it originally emerged.
I have always been quite proud to be British. We do not always get things right and our past is littered with wrongdoing and bad judgements BUT we have grown up, we have realised the errors of our old ways and we have become a nicer bunch of people. Then along comes UKIP with its divisive hate policies and I feel that we have taken a huge step backwards. The so-called "rise" of UKIP makes me feel quite ashamed of my country but I am confident that UKIP will soon crawl back under the stone from which it originally emerged. JulianCBrown
  • Score: -5

8:07am Thu 4 Sep 14

VoteUKIPGetUKIP says...

That is correct. The biggest dogs in the park are Labour and Conservative, and that , ironically was the start of this whole thread !

UKIP and the Greens are younger, smaller parties, and all that was being said was that it behoves both UKIP and the Greens to stop this self serving duopoly getting away with it in Stroud any longer.

That is all, end of story. The fact that Molly Scott Cato has acted like a scalded cat and totally and utterly overreacted to and misinterpreted these comments -- despite the fact that her own Green PPC in Stroud is on record in the report above as saying that he agrees that UKIP and the Greens have common ground on this one issue, ie exposing the Labour/Tory duopoly, is another issue.

Clearly the three regular posters on this thread will not change each others' minds, and clearly each is convinced of the correctness of their own opinion.

One vote for each of UKIP, the Greens and Labour then.

I just hope that we can respect our differences. Much better to debate this way than the way differences are settled in many other countries.

I would like to wish you both the best , although I most strongly and heartily disagree with the policies of both Labour and the Greens.
That is correct. The biggest dogs in the park are Labour and Conservative, and that , ironically was the start of this whole thread ! UKIP and the Greens are younger, smaller parties, and all that was being said was that it behoves both UKIP and the Greens to stop this self serving duopoly getting away with it in Stroud any longer. That is all, end of story. The fact that Molly Scott Cato has acted like a scalded cat and totally and utterly overreacted to and misinterpreted these comments -- despite the fact that her own Green PPC in Stroud is on record in the report above as saying that he agrees that UKIP and the Greens have common ground on this one issue, ie exposing the Labour/Tory duopoly, is another issue. Clearly the three regular posters on this thread will not change each others' minds, and clearly each is convinced of the correctness of their own opinion. One vote for each of UKIP, the Greens and Labour then. I just hope that we can respect our differences. Much better to debate this way than the way differences are settled in many other countries. I would like to wish you both the best , although I most strongly and heartily disagree with the policies of both Labour and the Greens. VoteUKIPGetUKIP
  • Score: 0

10:41pm Fri 5 Sep 14

Resident of Stroud says...

What an interesting exchange of opinions between the two main writers Ukipetc and Julian. Keep it up, only eight months to go before GE2015.
As a newcomer to this discussion might I add that both The Greens and Ukip have got themselves in an almighty quagmire of their own choosing.
Neither party has the remotest chance of upsetting the two main parties, even if they should run on a joint ticket (I know it was never proposed or accepted).
The Greens have established themselves as a creditable third party while Ukip remain very much a fringe party. In truth neither will be considered a threat to Labour or the Conservatives next year. The Greens because Labour has learnt to live with them and Ukip because the Conservatives know they will struggle to retain their deposit.
What an interesting exchange of opinions between the two main writers Ukipetc and Julian. Keep it up, only eight months to go before GE2015. As a newcomer to this discussion might I add that both The Greens and Ukip have got themselves in an almighty quagmire of their own choosing. Neither party has the remotest chance of upsetting the two main parties, even if they should run on a joint ticket (I know it was never proposed or accepted). The Greens have established themselves as a creditable third party while Ukip remain very much a fringe party. In truth neither will be considered a threat to Labour or the Conservatives next year. The Greens because Labour has learnt to live with them and Ukip because the Conservatives know they will struggle to retain their deposit. Resident of Stroud
  • Score: -2

12:54pm Sat 6 Sep 14

VoteUKIPGetUKIP says...

Well it seems that we have finally attracted a Tory voter to the thread -- so now we have a full house.

It is precisely because of misleading propaganda such as this that UKIP made the original comment that the Greens and UKIP should expose the Lab/Con duopoly and Tweedledum/Tweedlede
e politics in Stroud.

That is in the interests of both the Greens and UKIP and it is thoroughly regrettable the Molly Scott-Cato did not pick up on this concern properly, and chose instead to make hysterical anti UKIP points instead.

What we are seeing is the attempt by supporters of the big parties to pooh pooh the chances of the smaller ones as a result. this was to be expected.

The bottom line is that the Tory vote in Stroud is haemorrhaging. They are panicking that Labour will take the seat.

It is therefore clearly in the Tories' interests to big up the Greens as a means of taking votes from Labour, and more importantly to cast doubt on UKIP's chances as a means of taking votes away from the Tories, particularly post the Clacton by election.

None of this is rocket science.

The fact of the matter is that the predictions for Stroud based on the most recent polling by www.electoralcalculu
s.co.uk, which refers to late August polling is as follows :-

Lab 40.84%
Con 38.60%
UKIP 13.71%
Green 4.45% (stated as "Other")
Lib Dem 3.40 %

Clearly this is only a poll but it is the most recent and scientific information available.

How therefore it can be said that the Greens will come third and UKIP lose their deposit is beyond me.

As the threshold for losing deposits is 5% it seems far more likely that on the present information the Greens and the Lib Dems will lose their deposits, and not UKIP.

I would add that since this poll was taken UKIP's latest polling figures are once more on the increase post the Summer lull and the announcement of the Clacton by election.

UKIP's strength will only increase yet further once the by election has been won and as more Labour and Conservative MPs defect to UKIP in the run up to the General Election.

This means that UKIP will become, increasingly, a credible alternative to the Tories as the main challenger to Labour in Stroud. That is exactly what the Tories are concerned about, and that is the real purpose behind this easily disprovable post from the Tories.

On a slightly different subject --- and at the risk of re-igniting an earlier dispute with the Green voter -- the European election this year was certainly a national election, and it was of course won by UKIP.

Wikipedia states quite clearly that this was the first national election since 1910 to be won by a party which was not Labour or Conservative, and I remember that immediately post election this same point was made by much of the media.

So this statement was not made up by me.

Anyhow it is good to have a healthy debate .......

The General Election in Stroud will be a contest, I am quite sure, between Labour and UKIP.

All those who do not wish Labour to win and for David Drew to help Ed Miliband become Prime Minister must vote UKIP.

Fact.
Well it seems that we have finally attracted a Tory voter to the thread -- so now we have a full house. It is precisely because of misleading propaganda such as this that UKIP made the original comment that the Greens and UKIP should expose the Lab/Con duopoly and Tweedledum/Tweedlede e politics in Stroud. That is in the interests of both the Greens and UKIP and it is thoroughly regrettable the Molly Scott-Cato did not pick up on this concern properly, and chose instead to make hysterical anti UKIP points instead. What we are seeing is the attempt by supporters of the big parties to pooh pooh the chances of the smaller ones as a result. this was to be expected. The bottom line is that the Tory vote in Stroud is haemorrhaging. They are panicking that Labour will take the seat. It is therefore clearly in the Tories' interests to big up the Greens as a means of taking votes from Labour, and more importantly to cast doubt on UKIP's chances as a means of taking votes away from the Tories, particularly post the Clacton by election. None of this is rocket science. The fact of the matter is that the predictions for Stroud based on the most recent polling by www.electoralcalculu s.co.uk, which refers to late August polling is as follows :- Lab 40.84% Con 38.60% UKIP 13.71% Green 4.45% (stated as "Other") Lib Dem 3.40 % Clearly this is only a poll but it is the most recent and scientific information available. How therefore it can be said that the Greens will come third and UKIP lose their deposit is beyond me. As the threshold for losing deposits is 5% it seems far more likely that on the present information the Greens and the Lib Dems will lose their deposits, and not UKIP. I would add that since this poll was taken UKIP's latest polling figures are once more on the increase post the Summer lull and the announcement of the Clacton by election. UKIP's strength will only increase yet further once the by election has been won and as more Labour and Conservative MPs defect to UKIP in the run up to the General Election. This means that UKIP will become, increasingly, a credible alternative to the Tories as the main challenger to Labour in Stroud. That is exactly what the Tories are concerned about, and that is the real purpose behind this easily disprovable post from the Tories. On a slightly different subject --- and at the risk of re-igniting an earlier dispute with the Green voter -- the European election this year was certainly a national election, and it was of course won by UKIP. Wikipedia states quite clearly that this was the first national election since 1910 to be won by a party which was not Labour or Conservative, and I remember that immediately post election this same point was made by much of the media. So this statement was not made up by me. Anyhow it is good to have a healthy debate ....... The General Election in Stroud will be a contest, I am quite sure, between Labour and UKIP. All those who do not wish Labour to win and for David Drew to help Ed Miliband become Prime Minister must vote UKIP. Fact. VoteUKIPGetUKIP
  • Score: -1

3:36pm Sat 6 Sep 14

Resident of Stroud says...

Presumably I am the one referred to by Ukipper as the Tory voter to thread. Not sure how he/she came to that conclusion because in my only post I was careful not to give a party political view. I commented upon the newspaper article which indicated that Ukip and The Greens were squabbling like two ferrets in a sack – not good publicity for either party.
Referring to the two major parties as Tweedledum and Tweedledee is an old tactic of fringe parties to ridicule their opponents. The truth is that they would love to be their equals.
Actual voting statistics show that since the Second World War, no other party other than Tory or Labour has come remotely near taking the Stroud seat. The electorate of Stroud seem to be happy either with a Tory or Labour MP. The Liberal/LibDems/Gree
ns have always been distant third while Ukip have never retained their deposit.
Please supply supporting evidence on your statement (or is it just an opinion?): “The bottom line is that the Tory vote in Stroud is hemorrhaging. They are panicking that Labour will take the seat.”
Admittedly, if the GE was today then the Tories could lost the seat, but it is in 8 months and we all know that public opinion always solidifies behind the party of government nearer elections. Carmichael has a 1,299 majority over Drew and historically Stroud is a very stable constituency. The Tories could argue that for the last number of elections the LibDems have taken votes away from them but with the drop in support of that party, they might actually increase their majority.
Ukipper, you are premature in mentioning the Clacton by election result. Yes they will probably take that seat because of Carswell’s personal following. But of course it will be compared to his GE result and we all remember the Newark by election where Ukip had an open goal and still failed to score.
Thanks for the latest polling stats, but I refer you to actual voting figures. Ukip's support always, without exception, falls at GEs. Indeed it has fallen 14.4% within the past few months, while Labour has gone up by 15.4% and the Tories up by 14.7% (Using your own polling figures compared to the EU results in May). That is why I confidently predict Ukip will again lose their deposit. Whether The Greens or the LibDems lose theirs, I’m not so sure. Probably yes to the LibDems.
Ukipper, your statement: “UKIP's strength will only increase yet further once the by election has been won and as more Labour and Conservative MPs defect to UKIP in the run up to the General Election.” needs to be challenged. It is an open secret that Ukip have more defectors lined up to cross the floor at Westminster and that their names are to be announced at greatest impact for the party. But the same happened when the SDP were at their most popular. But unlike Ukip they had former government ministers join the party and not anonymous backbenchers. Most lost their seats at the next GE.
Presumably I am the one referred to by Ukipper as the Tory voter to thread. Not sure how he/she came to that conclusion because in my only post I was careful not to give a party political view. I commented upon the newspaper article which indicated that Ukip and The Greens were squabbling like two ferrets in a sack – not good publicity for either party. Referring to the two major parties as Tweedledum and Tweedledee is an old tactic of fringe parties to ridicule their opponents. The truth is that they would love to be their equals. Actual voting statistics show that since the Second World War, no other party other than Tory or Labour has come remotely near taking the Stroud seat. The electorate of Stroud seem to be happy either with a Tory or Labour MP. The Liberal/LibDems/Gree ns have always been distant third while Ukip have never retained their deposit. Please supply supporting evidence on your statement (or is it just an opinion?): “The bottom line is that the Tory vote in Stroud is hemorrhaging. They are panicking that Labour will take the seat.” Admittedly, if the GE was today then the Tories could lost the seat, but it is in 8 months and we all know that public opinion always solidifies behind the party of government nearer elections. Carmichael has a 1,299 majority over Drew and historically Stroud is a very stable constituency. The Tories could argue that for the last number of elections the LibDems have taken votes away from them but with the drop in support of that party, they might actually increase their majority. Ukipper, you are premature in mentioning the Clacton by election result. Yes they will probably take that seat because of Carswell’s personal following. But of course it will be compared to his GE result and we all remember the Newark by election where Ukip had an open goal and still failed to score. Thanks for the latest polling stats, but I refer you to actual voting figures. Ukip's support always, without exception, falls at GEs. Indeed it has fallen 14.4% within the past few months, while Labour has gone up by 15.4% and the Tories up by 14.7% (Using your own polling figures compared to the EU results in May). That is why I confidently predict Ukip will again lose their deposit. Whether The Greens or the LibDems lose theirs, I’m not so sure. Probably yes to the LibDems. Ukipper, your statement: “UKIP's strength will only increase yet further once the by election has been won and as more Labour and Conservative MPs defect to UKIP in the run up to the General Election.” needs to be challenged. It is an open secret that Ukip have more defectors lined up to cross the floor at Westminster and that their names are to be announced at greatest impact for the party. But the same happened when the SDP were at their most popular. But unlike Ukip they had former government ministers join the party and not anonymous backbenchers. Most lost their seats at the next GE. Resident of Stroud
  • Score: 1

4:23pm Sat 6 Sep 14

VoteUKIPGetUKIP says...

And after that post you still want us to believe that you are not a Tory ?

Bottom line is you are comparing performance figures with either the General Election in 2010 when UKIP was much less well established and less well known than is the case today, or you are comparing them with the European election of this year, and UKIP has historically done better at European Elections than in General Elections, in part due to the voting system employed.

You have then concocted comparisons to accord with your own view, ie to place the Tory Party in the best possible light, and UKIP in the least favourable light.

As regards the alleged satisfaction of Stroud voters with a two party pendulum, I don't think that is true at all.

You are aware as well as I am that the FPTP system unduly favours larger parties to the detriment of smaller ones, which is why Tweedlelab and Tweedlecon have always favoured this system.

The actual number of votes cast in a General Election are a much clearer indication of the will of the people, and I believe that all of the smaller parties would do much better under a more equitable system, as is the case in the European and Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish Parliament and Assembly elections.

The smaller parties would do even better under a more proportional system than the number of votes they achieve under FPTP would seem to indicate, as there would be no need for tactical voting, and sympathisers of small parties would not be put off voting for them by believing that they were casting a "wasted vote".

On top of that of course there is the gerrymandering of electoral boundaries which the two big parties have manipulated via the Boundary Commission so that their votes are maximised to the disadvantage of smaller parties.

In these circumstances and with these hurdles it amazing that smaller
parties ever manage to get any MPs elected at all.

Why was Newark an open goal by the way ? This was exactly one of those gerrymandered seats which had been created and designed for the Tories to win. All the former coal mining districts had been shaved off and allocated to a neighbouring Labour voting constituency.

Despite the PM visiting four times, along with almost every other Tory cabinet minister, despite a massive Tory expenditure and a massive Tory majority to be overturned, and despite no previous UKIP presence or organisation in the constituency, UKIP came from nowhere to a very creditable second place.

However second place does not elect an MP, and I am quite confident that this situation will be rectified in Clacton and elsewhere, as you seem to be as well.

It seems that Tory posters on this thread as well as Green and Labour ones are in denial as to the success of UKIP.

UKIP is here to stay and will only grow both in Stroud and in the rest of the country.

Unlike the SDP UKIP is a grassroots organisation, that is why it will stay and prevail. It is built from the ground up on solid foundations, unlike the SDP which was created from the top down.

I think that Lab/Con/Green/Lib Dem ignore, condemn, mock and abuse UKIP at their electoral peril.
And after that post you still want us to believe that you are not a Tory ? Bottom line is you are comparing performance figures with either the General Election in 2010 when UKIP was much less well established and less well known than is the case today, or you are comparing them with the European election of this year, and UKIP has historically done better at European Elections than in General Elections, in part due to the voting system employed. You have then concocted comparisons to accord with your own view, ie to place the Tory Party in the best possible light, and UKIP in the least favourable light. As regards the alleged satisfaction of Stroud voters with a two party pendulum, I don't think that is true at all. You are aware as well as I am that the FPTP system unduly favours larger parties to the detriment of smaller ones, which is why Tweedlelab and Tweedlecon have always favoured this system. The actual number of votes cast in a General Election are a much clearer indication of the will of the people, and I believe that all of the smaller parties would do much better under a more equitable system, as is the case in the European and Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish Parliament and Assembly elections. The smaller parties would do even better under a more proportional system than the number of votes they achieve under FPTP would seem to indicate, as there would be no need for tactical voting, and sympathisers of small parties would not be put off voting for them by believing that they were casting a "wasted vote". On top of that of course there is the gerrymandering of electoral boundaries which the two big parties have manipulated via the Boundary Commission so that their votes are maximised to the disadvantage of smaller parties. In these circumstances and with these hurdles it amazing that smaller parties ever manage to get any MPs elected at all. Why was Newark an open goal by the way ? This was exactly one of those gerrymandered seats which had been created and designed for the Tories to win. All the former coal mining districts had been shaved off and allocated to a neighbouring Labour voting constituency. Despite the PM visiting four times, along with almost every other Tory cabinet minister, despite a massive Tory expenditure and a massive Tory majority to be overturned, and despite no previous UKIP presence or organisation in the constituency, UKIP came from nowhere to a very creditable second place. However second place does not elect an MP, and I am quite confident that this situation will be rectified in Clacton and elsewhere, as you seem to be as well. It seems that Tory posters on this thread as well as Green and Labour ones are in denial as to the success of UKIP. UKIP is here to stay and will only grow both in Stroud and in the rest of the country. Unlike the SDP UKIP is a grassroots organisation, that is why it will stay and prevail. It is built from the ground up on solid foundations, unlike the SDP which was created from the top down. I think that Lab/Con/Green/Lib Dem ignore, condemn, mock and abuse UKIP at their electoral peril. VoteUKIPGetUKIP
  • Score: -2

7:01pm Sat 6 Sep 14

Resident of Stroud says...

Ukipper, whether I am Tory or Labour or Monster Raving Looney matters not, I questioned your assertions with facts and found you wanting.
You are doing your party down. In 2010 Ukip were already noisy but since 2012 they have become very loud. Nevertheless we must compare those 2010 results to the 2014EU results and the recent polling results that you supplied. The figures clearly show that support for Ukip has practically halved since May. Please advise me where I concocted comparisons to place the Tory Party in first place. I wrote that since May Labour have had the biggest increase in support.
I can assuredly state that the overwhelming majority of voters, including those in Stroud, are satisfied with the present FPTP. The AV referendum of 2011 confirms the public want a strong government and not a weak rotating one such as in Italy or Israel.
FPTP is what this country has and all parties must live with it. It is a closed debate.
I had to smile at your complaint of gerrymandering of the electoral boundaries. You could almost be a Tory spokesperson saying that Labour has an inbuilt majority with smaller number of voters in their constituencies.
Yes Newark was an open goal for Ukip. The by-election was called because a disgraced Conservative MP had to stand down. Ukip should have won the seat at a time the Conservatives were on the back foot. And also remember the by-election took place within days of the EU elections when Ukip were on a high.
I’m at a loss to understand why you should consider Tory, Green and Labour posters are in denial of Ukip success – Ukip Stroud has had none whatsoever. They did not get a single councillor elected in the recent local elections and in fact failed to submit a candidate in nearly half the seats – not even a paper candidate. Would indicate its support and its organization is paper thin.
Ukipper, whether I am Tory or Labour or Monster Raving Looney matters not, I questioned your assertions with facts and found you wanting. You are doing your party down. In 2010 Ukip were already noisy but since 2012 they have become very loud. Nevertheless we must compare those 2010 results to the 2014EU results and the recent polling results that you supplied. The figures clearly show that support for Ukip has practically halved since May. Please advise me where I concocted comparisons to place the Tory Party in first place. I wrote that since May Labour have had the biggest increase in support. I can assuredly state that the overwhelming majority of voters, including those in Stroud, are satisfied with the present FPTP. The AV referendum of 2011 confirms the public want a strong government and not a weak rotating one such as in Italy or Israel. FPTP is what this country has and all parties must live with it. It is a closed debate. I had to smile at your complaint of gerrymandering of the electoral boundaries. You could almost be a Tory spokesperson saying that Labour has an inbuilt majority with smaller number of voters in their constituencies. Yes Newark was an open goal for Ukip. The by-election was called because a disgraced Conservative MP had to stand down. Ukip should have won the seat at a time the Conservatives were on the back foot. And also remember the by-election took place within days of the EU elections when Ukip were on a high. I’m at a loss to understand why you should consider Tory, Green and Labour posters are in denial of Ukip success – Ukip Stroud has had none whatsoever. They did not get a single councillor elected in the recent local elections and in fact failed to submit a candidate in nearly half the seats – not even a paper candidate. Would indicate its support and its organization is paper thin. Resident of Stroud
  • Score: 3

7:59pm Sat 6 Sep 14

VoteUKIPGetUKIP says...

UKIP Stroud was completely reorganised just a matter of weeks before the elections this May.

The fact therefore that it was able to field candidates in as many wards as it did, and in more than it has ever stood in before was both significant and encouraging.

Yes UKIP came third in pretty much all of these seats, but given that UKIP, unlike the Greens, Labour and Conservative had had no track record or presence in almost any of them ever before this was a start on which to build, and for thousands of Stroud residents presented a first opportunity to vote UKIP at a local government election, and they
took advantage of this in substantial numbers.

Significantly in the by election in the Green/Labour stronghold of Valley this August UKIP was able to push the Tories into a humiliating fourth place ! This was in an area in which UKIP had also never stood before and which had a Tory councillor until some years ago.

It doesn't look to me that Israel has a weak government given the way that it has survived and flourished for so many years in such a hostile neighbourhood.

I think Italy is about the 7 th or 8th country in the world in terms of per capita GDP, and it has many world leading brands Fiat, Zanussi, many fashion and other industrial brands.

I think your post is very insulting to these countries both of whom are long standing British allies.

Lastly I wrote that you concocted comparisons to put the Tory party in the best light not to put it in first place. This is also true with the most recent post.You are seeking to make comparisons between voting in a low turn out
D'Hondt system European election and predicted polling in a much higher turnout General Election run under FPTP.

It is like comparing apples and pears, the only thing they have in common is that they are both fruit.

The best thing that other Tories and yourself can do in Stroud come the General Election is to vote UKIP and thus not split the anti Labour vote thereby handing the country back over to those who bust it, the heirs of Blair and Brown, Eds Miliband and Balls.

It is the best thing that you can do for your country.
UKIP Stroud was completely reorganised just a matter of weeks before the elections this May. The fact therefore that it was able to field candidates in as many wards as it did, and in more than it has ever stood in before was both significant and encouraging. Yes UKIP came third in pretty much all of these seats, but given that UKIP, unlike the Greens, Labour and Conservative had had no track record or presence in almost any of them ever before this was a start on which to build, and for thousands of Stroud residents presented a first opportunity to vote UKIP at a local government election, and they took advantage of this in substantial numbers. Significantly in the by election in the Green/Labour stronghold of Valley this August UKIP was able to push the Tories into a humiliating fourth place ! This was in an area in which UKIP had also never stood before and which had a Tory councillor until some years ago. It doesn't look to me that Israel has a weak government given the way that it has survived and flourished for so many years in such a hostile neighbourhood. I think Italy is about the 7 th or 8th country in the world in terms of per capita GDP, and it has many world leading brands Fiat, Zanussi, many fashion and other industrial brands. I think your post is very insulting to these countries both of whom are long standing British allies. Lastly I wrote that you concocted comparisons to put the Tory party in the best light not to put it in first place. This is also true with the most recent post.You are seeking to make comparisons between voting in a low turn out D'Hondt system European election and predicted polling in a much higher turnout General Election run under FPTP. It is like comparing apples and pears, the only thing they have in common is that they are both fruit. The best thing that other Tories and yourself can do in Stroud come the General Election is to vote UKIP and thus not split the anti Labour vote thereby handing the country back over to those who bust it, the heirs of Blair and Brown, Eds Miliband and Balls. It is the best thing that you can do for your country. VoteUKIPGetUKIP
  • Score: -3

9:36pm Sat 6 Sep 14

Rhyfelwyr says...

Well, this thread is certainly keeping the kippers off the streets. I can commend the Stroud Journal for this at least :-)
Well, this thread is certainly keeping the kippers off the streets. I can commend the Stroud Journal for this at least :-) Rhyfelwyr
  • Score: 5

11:06pm Sat 6 Sep 14

Resident of Stroud says...

Ukipper, First of all I must congratulate you on making me laugh out loud. I missed it the first time round but your description of the Labour and the Tories as Tweedlelab and Tweedlecon was brilliant and not one I’ve read before. I’m sure it will catch on both in and outside Stroud.

Okay now down to business. I regret you find my messages insulting. Israel and Italy do have weak political systems – that is a fact. I did not mention them militarily or commercial. And to use your quote “you are comparing apples to pears”.

That was unfortunate bad timing for Ukip Stroud to reorganise just weeks before the May elections. Did they forget about them or was it just bad management. Good get-out excuse for the poor results. But then one must ask how and why did Ukip do so badly in Slad when their candidate has admitted he worked the patch and even bussed in outside supporters to help him canvas. That was three months after the alleged reorganisation.

Yes Ukip came 3rd in some seats at the local elections but actually came 4th in the overall count: Conservatives 10,617 (38%), Labour 7,815 (28%) Greens 5,153 (18.5%) and Ukip 3,036 (11%).
Although less votes than the Conservatives, Labour were the big local winners by picking up three seats.
Similar story in the EU elections: Conservatives 11,451 (30%) Ukip 9,348 (24.5%) Labour 7,071 (18.5%) and Greens 6,528 (17%).

These most recent and actual results clearly show that it is neck and neck between the Tories and Labour and must give comfort to both parties. Therefore for you to consider that the Tory vote in Stroud is haemorrhaging is patently false and wishful thinking.

And another set of stats to clarify why Ukip Stroud will lose their deposit: their % vote always nosedives at General Elections compared to Euro elections – as the following shows
1999 Euro – 7% nationally but 1.6% at 2001GE in Stroud (minus 5.4%)
2004 Euro – 16% nationally but 1.9% at 2005GE in Stroud (minus 14.%)
2009 Euro – 17% nationally but 2.2% at 2010GE in Stroud (minus 15.8%)
2014 Euro – 27.5% nationally but already down to 13.7% in Stroud.
Ukip have never had more than 1,301 votes at any GE.
These figures are not concocted.

Okay Ukip Stroud managed 9,328 Euro votes but that would only place them 3rd in any GE and from previous voting patterns 6 to 8,000 of these people will revert back to either Conservative or Labour.
So basically a vote for Ukip in Stroud is a proven lost cause.
Ukipper, First of all I must congratulate you on making me laugh out loud. I missed it the first time round but your description of the Labour and the Tories as Tweedlelab and Tweedlecon was brilliant and not one I’ve read before. I’m sure it will catch on both in and outside Stroud. Okay now down to business. I regret you find my messages insulting. Israel and Italy do have weak political systems – that is a fact. I did not mention them militarily or commercial. And to use your quote “you are comparing apples to pears”. That was unfortunate bad timing for Ukip Stroud to reorganise just weeks before the May elections. Did they forget about them or was it just bad management. Good get-out excuse for the poor results. But then one must ask how and why did Ukip do so badly in Slad when their candidate has admitted he worked the patch and even bussed in outside supporters to help him canvas. That was three months after the alleged reorganisation. Yes Ukip came 3rd in some seats at the local elections but actually came 4th in the overall count: Conservatives 10,617 (38%), Labour 7,815 (28%) Greens 5,153 (18.5%) and Ukip 3,036 (11%). Although less votes than the Conservatives, Labour were the big local winners by picking up three seats. Similar story in the EU elections: Conservatives 11,451 (30%) Ukip 9,348 (24.5%) Labour 7,071 (18.5%) and Greens 6,528 (17%). These most recent and actual results clearly show that it is neck and neck between the Tories and Labour and must give comfort to both parties. Therefore for you to consider that the Tory vote in Stroud is haemorrhaging is patently false and wishful thinking. And another set of stats to clarify why Ukip Stroud will lose their deposit: their % vote always nosedives at General Elections compared to Euro elections – as the following shows 1999 Euro – 7% nationally but 1.6% at 2001GE in Stroud (minus 5.4%) 2004 Euro – 16% nationally but 1.9% at 2005GE in Stroud (minus 14.%) 2009 Euro – 17% nationally but 2.2% at 2010GE in Stroud (minus 15.8%) 2014 Euro – 27.5% nationally but already down to 13.7% in Stroud. Ukip have never had more than 1,301 votes at any GE. These figures are not concocted. Okay Ukip Stroud managed 9,328 Euro votes but that would only place them 3rd in any GE and from previous voting patterns 6 to 8,000 of these people will revert back to either Conservative or Labour. So basically a vote for Ukip in Stroud is a proven lost cause. Resident of Stroud
  • Score: 4

1:02am Sun 7 Sep 14

VoteUKIPGetUKIP says...

Well thanks for the compliment !

It doesn't take a big brain to work out that UKIP came fourth overall in the vote count this year in the SDC elections because, as you yourself admit in an earlier post, it only stood in a limited number of seats.

It is a bit difficult to get votes in wards in which you are not on the ballot sheet, and therefore UKIP's tally looks artificially depressed.

As regards the sophistry of the rest of your argument that UKIP will lose its deposit in the General Election because it came 2nd in the Stroud District in the European election the logic evades me somewhat.

The fact that you have to go back as far as 1999 -- a date when most Stroud residents had never heard of UKIP ---in an attempt to "prove" your mental somersaults somehow confirms the desperation of your hypothesis.

The bottom line is that time will tell.

I do agree with the Green poster that too much time is being spent on this thread though and so I am definitely going to sign off this time.

I must get out and deliver some more leaflets ....

On no I can't , it is almost 1 am !

Anyway thanks to the three of you for the healthy debate.

I think it is quite commendable. I am sure that the people of Stroud can look forward to an entertaining and informative General Election campaign.

Interesting that Natalie Bennett the Green leader made a similar comment at the Green Party conference today to that made by Caroline Stephens the UKIP PPC for Stroud which started this whole debate, re the
fact that a Lab/Con duopoly exists to the detriment of the smaller parties.

So Natalie is agreeing with Caroline. Does Molly know ?

Help. Please don't respond ..... I am not trying to initiate another mega -- thread !
Well thanks for the compliment ! It doesn't take a big brain to work out that UKIP came fourth overall in the vote count this year in the SDC elections because, as you yourself admit in an earlier post, it only stood in a limited number of seats. It is a bit difficult to get votes in wards in which you are not on the ballot sheet, and therefore UKIP's tally looks artificially depressed. As regards the sophistry of the rest of your argument that UKIP will lose its deposit in the General Election because it came 2nd in the Stroud District in the European election the logic evades me somewhat. The fact that you have to go back as far as 1999 -- a date when most Stroud residents had never heard of UKIP ---in an attempt to "prove" your mental somersaults somehow confirms the desperation of your hypothesis. The bottom line is that time will tell. I do agree with the Green poster that too much time is being spent on this thread though and so I am definitely going to sign off this time. I must get out and deliver some more leaflets .... On no I can't , it is almost 1 am ! Anyway thanks to the three of you for the healthy debate. I think it is quite commendable. I am sure that the people of Stroud can look forward to an entertaining and informative General Election campaign. Interesting that Natalie Bennett the Green leader made a similar comment at the Green Party conference today to that made by Caroline Stephens the UKIP PPC for Stroud which started this whole debate, re the fact that a Lab/Con duopoly exists to the detriment of the smaller parties. So Natalie is agreeing with Caroline. Does Molly know ? Help. Please don't respond ..... I am not trying to initiate another mega -- thread ! VoteUKIPGetUKIP
  • Score: -4

9:48am Sun 7 Sep 14

VoteUKIPGetUKIP says...

Sorry. I know I am not supposed to be commenting any more but please look at the article in Mailonline today in which senior Tories are reportedly pleading with the PM to do a deal with UKIP ahead of the General Election, and to offer Nigel Cleggie's job as Deputy PM.

It seems that some in your party are a lot more cognisant of the challenge posed by and electoral appeal of UKIP than you are, Resident of Stroud.

The fear is that if something is not done the walking disaster Miliband will be let into Number 10 by the back door.

That is why yourself and other Stroud Tories must vote UKIP to prevent this disaster unfolding in Stroud as I just do not believe that Neil Carmichael will defeat David Drew.

Only UKIP can do so.
Sorry. I know I am not supposed to be commenting any more but please look at the article in Mailonline today in which senior Tories are reportedly pleading with the PM to do a deal with UKIP ahead of the General Election, and to offer Nigel Cleggie's job as Deputy PM. It seems that some in your party are a lot more cognisant of the challenge posed by and electoral appeal of UKIP than you are, Resident of Stroud. The fear is that if something is not done the walking disaster Miliband will be let into Number 10 by the back door. That is why yourself and other Stroud Tories must vote UKIP to prevent this disaster unfolding in Stroud as I just do not believe that Neil Carmichael will defeat David Drew. Only UKIP can do so. VoteUKIPGetUKIP
  • Score: -6

9:52am Sun 7 Sep 14

Rhyfelwyr says...

The Daily Mail?

It's just the Sun for the over-50's. Of little consequence to the most of us.
The Daily Mail? It's just the Sun for the over-50's. Of little consequence to the most of us. Rhyfelwyr
  • Score: 4

9:57am Sun 7 Sep 14

JulianCBrown says...

Rhyfelwyr wrote:
The Daily Mail?

It's just the Sun for the over-50's. Of little consequence to the most of us.
Excuse me! Obnoxious as the 'Daily Mail' is please do NOT group all of us over 50s into their readership bracket. We are not all disciples of hate reporting!
[quote][p][bold]Rhyfelwyr[/bold] wrote: The Daily Mail? It's just the Sun for the over-50's. Of little consequence to the most of us.[/p][/quote]Excuse me! Obnoxious as the 'Daily Mail' is please do NOT group all of us over 50s into their readership bracket. We are not all disciples of hate reporting! JulianCBrown
  • Score: 3

10:26am Sun 7 Sep 14

VoteUKIPGetUKIP says...

Well whichever newspaper has reported it it is a fact that some senior Conservative MPs are approaching Cameron with the proposals I detailed above.

Jacob Rees-Mogg the MP for North east Somerset is one of them.

The point I was trying to make to Resident of Stroud is that they would hardly be doing this if UKIP was of no consequence, as he or she seems to claim.

The fact of the matter is that Stroud Labour are quite clearly targeting the Green and Lib Dem voters in Stroud in order to get David Drew elected.

I think a lot of Greens and Lib Dems will vote Labour in Stroud come the General Election, despite the fact that David Drew did not vote against the 2003 invasion of Iraq and despite the fact that he had a dodgy voting record on gay rights, as some Green ( and I think also possibly Labour) bloggers have previously acknowledged. Stroud Labour have in fact confirmed this on their website.

With such a Grand Coalition of the Left in Stroud voting tactically it is necessary for the anti Labour forces to vote tactically as well , otherwise we will clearly be lumbered with another Labour government, with all the disastrous consequences that will flow for the country from that.

That is all that I am trying to say, but Resident of Stroud is clearly in denial.
Well whichever newspaper has reported it it is a fact that some senior Conservative MPs are approaching Cameron with the proposals I detailed above. Jacob Rees-Mogg the MP for North east Somerset is one of them. The point I was trying to make to Resident of Stroud is that they would hardly be doing this if UKIP was of no consequence, as he or she seems to claim. The fact of the matter is that Stroud Labour are quite clearly targeting the Green and Lib Dem voters in Stroud in order to get David Drew elected. I think a lot of Greens and Lib Dems will vote Labour in Stroud come the General Election, despite the fact that David Drew did not vote against the 2003 invasion of Iraq and despite the fact that he had a dodgy voting record on gay rights, as some Green ( and I think also possibly Labour) bloggers have previously acknowledged. Stroud Labour have in fact confirmed this on their website. With such a Grand Coalition of the Left in Stroud voting tactically it is necessary for the anti Labour forces to vote tactically as well , otherwise we will clearly be lumbered with another Labour government, with all the disastrous consequences that will flow for the country from that. That is all that I am trying to say, but Resident of Stroud is clearly in denial. VoteUKIPGetUKIP
  • Score: -3

4:31pm Sun 7 Sep 14

Resident of Stroud says...

Rhyfelwyr wrote:
Well, this thread is certainly keeping the kippers off the streets. I can commend the Stroud Journal for this at least :-)
Although the newspaper article mentioned both The Greens and Ukip, the Green poster soon ceased adding to thread while our Ukipper kept it going. So as you rightly imply it has become another de-facto Ukip thread. Okay Ukipper has generally come off second best but insists on having the last word and keeping thread alive. Apparently that is not an uncommon tactic by members of Ukip – the more messages a thread gets the higher it goes up on a web search. Ukip hope that casual searchers will see the name Ukip prominently displayed and be suitably impressed without necessarily reading the correspondence.
I did note that any poster who challenges Ukip usually gets the thumbs down. I’ve had a few which I now proudly accept as a badge of honour. At least someone has bothered reading what I’ve written although not necessarily agreeing with it.

Reference the Mailonline article - obviously it is up for great debate on a national forum but not here on a local town forum. I have heard no rumours that our Conservative MP is thinking of defecting to Ukip or even running on a joint ticket. He knows that Ukip Stroud is so inconsequential that they will not influence next year’s GE outcome. However I must admit I smiled to get more than one name check from Ukipper. I guess I’m being baited but won’t fall into that trap.
[quote][p][bold]Rhyfelwyr[/bold] wrote: Well, this thread is certainly keeping the kippers off the streets. I can commend the Stroud Journal for this at least :-)[/p][/quote]Although the newspaper article mentioned both The Greens and Ukip, the Green poster soon ceased adding to thread while our Ukipper kept it going. So as you rightly imply it has become another de-facto Ukip thread. Okay Ukipper has generally come off second best but insists on having the last word and keeping thread alive. Apparently that is not an uncommon tactic by members of Ukip – the more messages a thread gets the higher it goes up on a web search. Ukip hope that casual searchers will see the name Ukip prominently displayed and be suitably impressed without necessarily reading the correspondence. I did note that any poster who challenges Ukip usually gets the thumbs down. I’ve had a few which I now proudly accept as a badge of honour. At least someone has bothered reading what I’ve written although not necessarily agreeing with it. Reference the Mailonline article - obviously it is up for great debate on a national forum but not here on a local town forum. I have heard no rumours that our Conservative MP is thinking of defecting to Ukip or even running on a joint ticket. He knows that Ukip Stroud is so inconsequential that they will not influence next year’s GE outcome. However I must admit I smiled to get more than one name check from Ukipper. I guess I’m being baited but won’t fall into that trap. Resident of Stroud
  • Score: 3

5:36pm Sun 7 Sep 14

VoteUKIPGetUKIP says...

As Neil Carmichael is Chairman of the Conservative Lobby Group for Europe, of which the notorious Bilderberger Ken Clarke is President, (you know the guy who said we should join the Euro and then called UKIP loonies,) I doubt very much whether hel (Neil) will be joining UKIP any time soon.

Thanks for ascribing all of these black arts to me. I don't know what a name check is, wasn't trying to bait you in any way and certainly hadn't thought about the SEO rankings, but you have made a good point there.

All I was trying to do was to put across a different point of view to the Lab/Lib/Con/Green one.

Last time I checked we were still living in a democracy and it is allowed to have a different opinion from the establishment parties, amongst whom, judging by this present thread, the Greens now seem to be numbered as well as Lab/Lib/Con.

Oh and by the way I don't think I came second best. I am still waiting for answers from the three of you to most of the points which I have made. The only logical conclusion to be drawn from a lack of answer is that you don't have one, otherwise you would have already proffered it.
As Neil Carmichael is Chairman of the Conservative Lobby Group for Europe, of which the notorious Bilderberger Ken Clarke is President, (you know the guy who said we should join the Euro and then called UKIP loonies,) I doubt very much whether hel (Neil) will be joining UKIP any time soon. Thanks for ascribing all of these black arts to me. I don't know what a name check is, wasn't trying to bait you in any way and certainly hadn't thought about the SEO rankings, but you have made a good point there. All I was trying to do was to put across a different point of view to the Lab/Lib/Con/Green one. Last time I checked we were still living in a democracy and it is allowed to have a different opinion from the establishment parties, amongst whom, judging by this present thread, the Greens now seem to be numbered as well as Lab/Lib/Con. Oh and by the way I don't think I came second best. I am still waiting for answers from the three of you to most of the points which I have made. The only logical conclusion to be drawn from a lack of answer is that you don't have one, otherwise you would have already proffered it. VoteUKIPGetUKIP
  • Score: -5

5:42pm Sun 7 Sep 14

JulianCBrown says...

Question to our UKIPper friend: Why did Stroud Constituency UKIP have to parachute in a prospective parliamentary candidate from Wiltshire? Was there no-one in Stroud willing or able to stand under the UKIP banner?
Question to our UKIPper friend: Why did Stroud Constituency UKIP have to parachute in a prospective parliamentary candidate from Wiltshire? Was there no-one in Stroud willing or able to stand under the UKIP banner? JulianCBrown
  • Score: 4

6:43pm Sun 7 Sep 14

VoteUKIPGetUKIP says...

I guess she must have been the best candidate to apply on the day.

At least she is from the same region as Stroud, just over 25 miles up the road.

Why haven't you asked why it is that the Tories had to parachute in a candidate from Northumberland, the furthest possible part of England from Gloucestershire, to be their candidate ?

Why haven't you asked Tory Boy or Girl Resident of Stroud that ?

The answer is because, as can be seen all the way through this thread, the big establishment legacy parties all co-operate to do down UKIP as much as they possibly can.

UKIP was attempting to break this mould with the Greens, but unfortunately Molly had a hissy fit despite both her Party Leader and her Stroud PPC being on record as agreeing with what Caroline had said.

It seems very strange to me that the representatives of the legacy parties on this site and elsewhere invest so much time and energy in dishing UKIP if UKIP is of as little consequence as they claim.

It is a bit like whistling in the dark.

"Methinks they doth protest too much .............."
I guess she must have been the best candidate to apply on the day. At least she is from the same region as Stroud, just over 25 miles up the road. Why haven't you asked why it is that the Tories had to parachute in a candidate from Northumberland, the furthest possible part of England from Gloucestershire, to be their candidate ? Why haven't you asked Tory Boy or Girl Resident of Stroud that ? The answer is because, as can be seen all the way through this thread, the big establishment legacy parties all co-operate to do down UKIP as much as they possibly can. UKIP was attempting to break this mould with the Greens, but unfortunately Molly had a hissy fit despite both her Party Leader and her Stroud PPC being on record as agreeing with what Caroline had said. It seems very strange to me that the representatives of the legacy parties on this site and elsewhere invest so much time and energy in dishing UKIP if UKIP is of as little consequence as they claim. It is a bit like whistling in the dark. "Methinks they doth protest too much .............." VoteUKIPGetUKIP
  • Score: -4

6:55pm Sun 7 Sep 14

JulianCBrown says...

VoteUKIPGetUKIP wrote:
I guess she must have been the best candidate to apply on the day.

At least she is from the same region as Stroud, just over 25 miles up the road.

Why haven't you asked why it is that the Tories had to parachute in a candidate from Northumberland, the furthest possible part of England from Gloucestershire, to be their candidate ?

Why haven't you asked Tory Boy or Girl Resident of Stroud that ?

The answer is because, as can be seen all the way through this thread, the big establishment legacy parties all co-operate to do down UKIP as much as they possibly can.

UKIP was attempting to break this mould with the Greens, but unfortunately Molly had a hissy fit despite both her Party Leader and her Stroud PPC being on record as agreeing with what Caroline had said.

It seems very strange to me that the representatives of the legacy parties on this site and elsewhere invest so much time and energy in dishing UKIP if UKIP is of as little consequence as they claim.

It is a bit like whistling in the dark.

"Methinks they doth protest too much .............."
The reason that the Tories parachuted in Kneel Carbuncle is that after the local electorate's experience with the worse than useless Roger Knapman they wanted to put up a candidate who was better but still pretty awful in order not to show Knapman up too badly. I believe said Knappers went on to be a high flyer in UKIP?

At least David Drew is local man. Not sure about the Green Party man and couldn't care less about the LibDem.
[quote][p][bold]VoteUKIPGetUKIP[/bold] wrote: I guess she must have been the best candidate to apply on the day. At least she is from the same region as Stroud, just over 25 miles up the road. Why haven't you asked why it is that the Tories had to parachute in a candidate from Northumberland, the furthest possible part of England from Gloucestershire, to be their candidate ? Why haven't you asked Tory Boy or Girl Resident of Stroud that ? The answer is because, as can be seen all the way through this thread, the big establishment legacy parties all co-operate to do down UKIP as much as they possibly can. UKIP was attempting to break this mould with the Greens, but unfortunately Molly had a hissy fit despite both her Party Leader and her Stroud PPC being on record as agreeing with what Caroline had said. It seems very strange to me that the representatives of the legacy parties on this site and elsewhere invest so much time and energy in dishing UKIP if UKIP is of as little consequence as they claim. It is a bit like whistling in the dark. "Methinks they doth protest too much .............."[/p][/quote]The reason that the Tories parachuted in Kneel Carbuncle is that after the local electorate's experience with the worse than useless Roger Knapman they wanted to put up a candidate who was better but still pretty awful in order not to show Knapman up too badly. I believe said Knappers went on to be a high flyer in UKIP? At least David Drew is local man. Not sure about the Green Party man and couldn't care less about the LibDem. JulianCBrown
  • Score: 1

7:29pm Sun 7 Sep 14

VoteUKIPGetUKIP says...

You mean that Roger Knapman was something big in UKIP in the same way as the war criminal Tony Blair was much more recently something big in Labour ?

Roger Knapman was before my time in UKIP but whatever his misdemeanours might have been I am sure that they don't extend to war crimes, and to having the blood of hundreds of thousands of innocent people on his hands.

This is not just my opinion, but also the opinion of millions of other people. The President of France and Chancellor of Germany and many other world leaders at the time refused to go ahead with Blair's criminal folly, and the UN refused to endorse it.

Your local man in Stroud David Drew absented himself from the debate in the House of Commons in March 2003 as to whether or not Iraq should be invaded, and just two days later US and UK military forces unilaterally attacked this sovereign nation in an act which by most interpretations of international law was illegal.

Then there is the issue that Blair may have wilfully misled the House of Commons as to the existence of WMD.

The fact that local man David Drew effectively abstained in the debate on the attack on Iraq has the same consequence as if he voted in favour of it.

He didn't vote against. That is the point.

On top of this he did vote against the launch of an investigation into the circumstances surrounding the invasion when this was debated in 2008.

So whatever the failings of Roger Knapman may have been -- and as you say he was a Tory MP not a UKIP one -- and I am certainly no apologist for him, his failings are infinitesimal compared with the crimes of former Labour leader Blair, who was supported throughout his time as PM by Stroud's local man David Drew.
You mean that Roger Knapman was something big in UKIP in the same way as the war criminal Tony Blair was much more recently something big in Labour ? Roger Knapman was before my time in UKIP but whatever his misdemeanours might have been I am sure that they don't extend to war crimes, and to having the blood of hundreds of thousands of innocent people on his hands. This is not just my opinion, but also the opinion of millions of other people. The President of France and Chancellor of Germany and many other world leaders at the time refused to go ahead with Blair's criminal folly, and the UN refused to endorse it. Your local man in Stroud David Drew absented himself from the debate in the House of Commons in March 2003 as to whether or not Iraq should be invaded, and just two days later US and UK military forces unilaterally attacked this sovereign nation in an act which by most interpretations of international law was illegal. Then there is the issue that Blair may have wilfully misled the House of Commons as to the existence of WMD. The fact that local man David Drew effectively abstained in the debate on the attack on Iraq has the same consequence as if he voted in favour of it. He didn't vote against. That is the point. On top of this he did vote against the launch of an investigation into the circumstances surrounding the invasion when this was debated in 2008. So whatever the failings of Roger Knapman may have been -- and as you say he was a Tory MP not a UKIP one -- and I am certainly no apologist for him, his failings are infinitesimal compared with the crimes of former Labour leader Blair, who was supported throughout his time as PM by Stroud's local man David Drew. VoteUKIPGetUKIP
  • Score: -4

7:33pm Sun 7 Sep 14

Resident of Stroud says...

Here I must jump and defend Ukip's choice of candidate. She has an impressive CV describing herself as a Financial Educational Consultant, Campaigner and Public Speaker. That CV is more impressive than many PPC or even MPs.
But yes I am puzzled that she should choose to be a PPC for the Ukip backwater of Stroud where she has no apparent connections.
Perhaps because she has only been in the party for a couple of years, I guess Ukip did not want her representing a more winnable seat but to see how she performs here. I dare say in a couple of years she might very well be one of their principle speakers. (She will have plenty of time because there is no chance of her becoming Stroud MP)
And because we are talking about her, it shows the weakness of Ukip in that for every GE since they have had representation in Stroud, they've put up a different parliamentary candidate unlike the settled ones of Labour and Tories.
Here I must jump and defend Ukip's choice of candidate. She has an impressive CV describing herself as a Financial Educational Consultant, Campaigner and Public Speaker. That CV is more impressive than many PPC or even MPs. But yes I am puzzled that she should choose to be a PPC for the Ukip backwater of Stroud where she has no apparent connections. Perhaps because she has only been in the party for a couple of years, I guess Ukip did not want her representing a more winnable seat but to see how she performs here. I dare say in a couple of years she might very well be one of their principle speakers. (She will have plenty of time because there is no chance of her becoming Stroud MP) And because we are talking about her, it shows the weakness of Ukip in that for every GE since they have had representation in Stroud, they've put up a different parliamentary candidate unlike the settled ones of Labour and Tories. Resident of Stroud
  • Score: 1

7:55pm Sun 7 Sep 14

VoteUKIPGetUKIP says...

As I said earlier, for a so called no hope fringe party of little consequence, who apparently cannot possibly affect the result in Stroud, and who are apparently bound to lose their deposit, you big boys and girls of the Lab/Lib/Green coalition on SDC, (the euphemism is co-operative agreement), and your Tory fellow travellers do seem to be remarkably exercised and well informed about little old Stroud UKIP and its prime movers.

As I also said earlier "Methinks ........."

Keep on whistling until the end of the road, and don't be afraid of the dark.
As I said earlier, for a so called no hope fringe party of little consequence, who apparently cannot possibly affect the result in Stroud, and who are apparently bound to lose their deposit, you big boys and girls of the Lab/Lib/Green coalition on SDC, (the euphemism is co-operative agreement), and your Tory fellow travellers do seem to be remarkably exercised and well informed about little old Stroud UKIP and its prime movers. As I also said earlier "Methinks ........." Keep on whistling until the end of the road, and don't be afraid of the dark. VoteUKIPGetUKIP
  • Score: -3

8:16pm Sun 7 Sep 14

Resident of Stroud says...

Ukipper, ref you #post timed 5.36pm

I was unaware that Carmichael was Conservative Chairman Lobby Group for Europe. However I have it in writing that he will campaign for a EU Referendum in the next Parliament. As you know Referendums allow party political opponent to sit on the same platform. So because of his personal beliefs, it matters not because he will only have one vote - the same as the rest of us.

Ukipper you are certainly being bested. Most of your posts are of a defensive nature. And exactly what questions have you asked that I've not answered?

I will give you credit in that you smudge an issue whenever the truth for your party is unpalatable. For instance I supplied facts that can be checked in public record and you say they are concocted. No they were not. They show that Ukip are going to get hammered next May.
Ukipper, ref you #post timed 5.36pm I was unaware that Carmichael was Conservative Chairman Lobby Group for Europe. However I have it in writing that he will campaign for a EU Referendum in the next Parliament. As you know Referendums allow party political opponent to sit on the same platform. So because of his personal beliefs, it matters not because he will only have one vote - the same as the rest of us. Ukipper you are certainly being bested. Most of your posts are of a defensive nature. And exactly what questions have you asked that I've not answered? I will give you credit in that you smudge an issue whenever the truth for your party is unpalatable. For instance I supplied facts that can be checked in public record and you say they are concocted. No they were not. They show that Ukip are going to get hammered next May. Resident of Stroud
  • Score: 2

8:39pm Sun 7 Sep 14

VoteUKIPGetUKIP says...

Well I don't know how he is going to campaign for a referendum in the next Parliament as it is pretty clear that he is not going to be in the next Parliament, unless he is sent to the House of Lords.

And if he is so keen on an EU referendum why hasn't he campaigned for one in this Parliament ?
Well I don't know how he is going to campaign for a referendum in the next Parliament as it is pretty clear that he is not going to be in the next Parliament, unless he is sent to the House of Lords. And if he is so keen on an EU referendum why hasn't he campaigned for one in this Parliament ? VoteUKIPGetUKIP
  • Score: 0

9:25pm Sun 7 Sep 14

Resident of Stroud says...

Carmichael has the best chance of all Stroud PPCs of winning next May.
The Conservatives returned most votes in both the EU and local elections.
He already has a small majority and as far as I know the Parliamentary commissionaire is not looking into his expenses.
It is wishful thinking on your behalf to consider he will not win.
Carmichael has the best chance of all Stroud PPCs of winning next May. The Conservatives returned most votes in both the EU and local elections. He already has a small majority and as far as I know the Parliamentary commissionaire is not looking into his expenses. It is wishful thinking on your behalf to consider he will not win. Resident of Stroud
  • Score: 1

9:43pm Sun 7 Sep 14

VoteUKIPGetUKIP says...

That'll be why the Tory Lord Ashcroft , Electoral Calculus and just about every other poll are currently predicting a Labour gain for Stroud then.

First part of any therapy is to stop denial of the current situation and circumstances.

Ask any shrink.

Once you have reconnected with and embraced reality you can then continue the therapy, in this case by voting UKIP and helping them prevent a Labour gain in Stroud.

You know it makes sense.
That'll be why the Tory Lord Ashcroft , Electoral Calculus and just about every other poll are currently predicting a Labour gain for Stroud then. First part of any therapy is to stop denial of the current situation and circumstances. Ask any shrink. Once you have reconnected with and embraced reality you can then continue the therapy, in this case by voting UKIP and helping them prevent a Labour gain in Stroud. You know it makes sense. VoteUKIPGetUKIP
  • Score: -3

5:56pm Mon 8 Sep 14

Resident of Stroud says...

Ukipper, Reference your last message.
Obviously we are going round in circles with our opinions as to who we suspect will become Stroud’s next MP, and apparently not agreeing. I have supplied facts and figures to support my case and you have explained yours. In seven months time the voters will have their say and prove one of us right.

Keeping on the same subject but moving it back slightly: earlier there was an unpleasant exchange between JulianCBrown and Ukipper as to whether Ukip are a racist party. Julian should be very careful because there are racists in every party, who every now and then get caught out. As Ukipper rightly states Ukip have forbidden anybody who has had any form of association with the BNP to become members of Ukip. Nevertheless Ukip are seen as the BNP in suits. And from afar that is understandable. In 2009 the BNP secured two seats in the EU Parliament but lost them at the next election. Ukip secured those seats in 2014 and one therefore could draw the conclusion that the BNP vote went to Ukip. If that is so, those Ukip MEPs must dance a very close line towards racialism to remain electable.
In Stroud there is no racial problem whatsoever, whether from the third world or east Europe. That is probably why Ukip has no local support as it does in, say, Kent.

Julian also wrote: “I have never yet met a UKIP supporter who I would want as a neighbour!”
As much as I disagree with much of what they represent, my best friend is a Ukip activist. I get on well with my neighbours but don’t have clue about their political affiliations although I did see a Green poster in one of their windows in May.
Julian you must live and let live.

I must agree with Ukipper that most of Julian’s quotes of Ukip policy were taken out of context. Ukip will present the public with a populist policy, as will each and every party. And all of them are all like the curate’s egg – good in parts. As part of a democracy we must accept the good and bad of whatever party gets into government. There will be plenty of opportunity in the next few months to examine each other’s policies and find them wanting.
But we do know that that fringe parties - LibDem, Greens and Ukip – promise the earth knowing that they will never have to produce. The LibDems made that mistake before the last election when they said they would not up student fees and economic reality of government forced them to go back on that promise.

Previously Ukip Stroud has been targeting The Greens as their closest rivals and Ukipper had a good go at them again on this thread. As Ukipper rightly says, Ukip have only had a presence in Stroud for about 15 years. He/she will not remember the affection directed towards the Greens when they sat in the trees alongside Stratford Road and stopped them being felled for a Tesco by-pass or by preventing the loss of a historic building in Nailsworth by sitting on its roof. That affection remains. But the Greens always work better in partnership with another party, as we know in Stroud. I don’t know the full background to the bad publicity they are getting in Brighton. They will probably lose leadership of the council but might retain Caroline Lucas as MP. She is very popular and on top of her brief. However it galls Ukip that another fringe party already has an MP and managed to secure leadership of a large local council. Should Ukip ever manage to do the same, be sure they will come under the same scrutiny as they have given the Greens.

There have been a couple of name checks of our former MPs. Roger Knapman was not a bad MP but had a low profile in the constituency. He was more interested in Westminster politics and kept his head down by becoming a government whip. He lost his seat in the overwhelming Labour victory of 1997 as did many established Conservative MPs. Eventually he changed parties and became a member of Ukip. Ukip will always be deeply in his dept because he was the first heavyweight politician to join the party and under his stewardship as party leader their popularity rating greatly increased on which Nigel Farage has subsequently built.
By common consent David Drew was a very popular constituency MP, popular even with Tory and Ukip voters that I have spoken to. Most voters do not consider having Drew returned as our MP would be a problem.

And lastly Ukipper we seem to have got under your skin in that you are getting personal. You are not doing your case any good with sarcasm. Subtle put downs – yes, but not sarcasm.
Ukipper, Reference your last message. Obviously we are going round in circles with our opinions as to who we suspect will become Stroud’s next MP, and apparently not agreeing. I have supplied facts and figures to support my case and you have explained yours. In seven months time the voters will have their say and prove one of us right. Keeping on the same subject but moving it back slightly: earlier there was an unpleasant exchange between JulianCBrown and Ukipper as to whether Ukip are a racist party. Julian should be very careful because there are racists in every party, who every now and then get caught out. As Ukipper rightly states Ukip have forbidden anybody who has had any form of association with the BNP to become members of Ukip. Nevertheless Ukip are seen as the BNP in suits. And from afar that is understandable. In 2009 the BNP secured two seats in the EU Parliament but lost them at the next election. Ukip secured those seats in 2014 and one therefore could draw the conclusion that the BNP vote went to Ukip. If that is so, those Ukip MEPs must dance a very close line towards racialism to remain electable. In Stroud there is no racial problem whatsoever, whether from the third world or east Europe. That is probably why Ukip has no local support as it does in, say, Kent. Julian also wrote: “I have never yet met a UKIP supporter who I would want as a neighbour!” As much as I disagree with much of what they represent, my best friend is a Ukip activist. I get on well with my neighbours but don’t have clue about their political affiliations although I did see a Green poster in one of their windows in May. Julian you must live and let live. I must agree with Ukipper that most of Julian’s quotes of Ukip policy were taken out of context. Ukip will present the public with a populist policy, as will each and every party. And all of them are all like the curate’s egg – good in parts. As part of a democracy we must accept the good and bad of whatever party gets into government. There will be plenty of opportunity in the next few months to examine each other’s policies and find them wanting. But we do know that that fringe parties - LibDem, Greens and Ukip – promise the earth knowing that they will never have to produce. The LibDems made that mistake before the last election when they said they would not up student fees and economic reality of government forced them to go back on that promise. Previously Ukip Stroud has been targeting The Greens as their closest rivals and Ukipper had a good go at them again on this thread. As Ukipper rightly says, Ukip have only had a presence in Stroud for about 15 years. He/she will not remember the affection directed towards the Greens when they sat in the trees alongside Stratford Road and stopped them being felled for a Tesco by-pass or by preventing the loss of a historic building in Nailsworth by sitting on its roof. That affection remains. But the Greens always work better in partnership with another party, as we know in Stroud. I don’t know the full background to the bad publicity they are getting in Brighton. They will probably lose leadership of the council but might retain Caroline Lucas as MP. She is very popular and on top of her brief. However it galls Ukip that another fringe party already has an MP and managed to secure leadership of a large local council. Should Ukip ever manage to do the same, be sure they will come under the same scrutiny as they have given the Greens. There have been a couple of name checks of our former MPs. Roger Knapman was not a bad MP but had a low profile in the constituency. He was more interested in Westminster politics and kept his head down by becoming a government whip. He lost his seat in the overwhelming Labour victory of 1997 as did many established Conservative MPs. Eventually he changed parties and became a member of Ukip. Ukip will always be deeply in his dept because he was the first heavyweight politician to join the party and under his stewardship as party leader their popularity rating greatly increased on which Nigel Farage has subsequently built. By common consent David Drew was a very popular constituency MP, popular even with Tory and Ukip voters that I have spoken to. Most voters do not consider having Drew returned as our MP would be a problem. And lastly Ukipper we seem to have got under your skin in that you are getting personal. You are not doing your case any good with sarcasm. Subtle put downs – yes, but not sarcasm. Resident of Stroud
  • Score: 2

6:49pm Mon 8 Sep 14

VoteUKIPGetUKIP says...

Well quite a thoughtful post from Resident of Stroud.

I am sorry if you think I have been personal, I certainly did not intend to be so, but I think you must agree that I have had to put up with a certain amount of abuse throughout this thread, such as being called a racist bigot by Julian , for example.

I also disagree most heartily with your portrayal of UKIP as the "BNP in Blazers" and your unfounded statement that all former BNP voters voted UKIP in the European elections this year.

Nor is UKIP jealous of the Greens for having an MP.

UKIP will have many more than one single MP soon.

UKIP is not galled in any sense by the "success" of the Greens.

As their leader Natalie Bennett has recently confirmed at their Conference, the Greens are an extreme left wing political party. A true fringe party in fact.

On the other hand UKIP is now firmly established in the mainstream as the third party of British politics.

I would refer you to average polling figures from UK Polling Report :-

Lab 36 %. Con 35% UKIP 15% Lib Dem 8 % Green 4%

This is for polling taken in August, so after the Euro high and before the Clacton effect.

You will see that UKIP are polling a little under half of Labour and Tory, almost double the Lib Dems and almost four times the Greens.

I confidently predict that UKIP will climb into the 20%-25% bracket ahead of the General Election, and will gradually close the gap on the two parties of the duopoly.

Anyway thanks for your thoughtful post and for attempting to depersonalise matters.
Well quite a thoughtful post from Resident of Stroud. I am sorry if you think I have been personal, I certainly did not intend to be so, but I think you must agree that I have had to put up with a certain amount of abuse throughout this thread, such as being called a racist bigot by Julian , for example. I also disagree most heartily with your portrayal of UKIP as the "BNP in Blazers" and your unfounded statement that all former BNP voters voted UKIP in the European elections this year. Nor is UKIP jealous of the Greens for having an MP. UKIP will have many more than one single MP soon. UKIP is not galled in any sense by the "success" of the Greens. As their leader Natalie Bennett has recently confirmed at their Conference, the Greens are an extreme left wing political party. A true fringe party in fact. On the other hand UKIP is now firmly established in the mainstream as the third party of British politics. I would refer you to average polling figures from UK Polling Report :- Lab 36 %. Con 35% UKIP 15% Lib Dem 8 % Green 4% This is for polling taken in August, so after the Euro high and before the Clacton effect. You will see that UKIP are polling a little under half of Labour and Tory, almost double the Lib Dems and almost four times the Greens. I confidently predict that UKIP will climb into the 20%-25% bracket ahead of the General Election, and will gradually close the gap on the two parties of the duopoly. Anyway thanks for your thoughtful post and for attempting to depersonalise matters. VoteUKIPGetUKIP
  • Score: -1

8:25am Tue 9 Sep 14

JulianCBrown says...

Sorry Stroud Resident but I cannot "live & let live". I know from personal experience that UKIP is a refuge for supporters of the odious BNP & the EDL who realise that their ultra right-wing racist views will not yet get them elected so they support UKIP as the next best thing with the view of moving the party even more towards extreme views so that they can achieve their aims by stealth.

UKIP is without doubt a racist party and I do not wish to "live" with supporters of such abhorrent views.

Whilst on the subject of policy can VoteUKIPGetUKIP let us know the official party view on the following: Hunting with hounds, smoking in public places, reform of the NHS & income tax policy. That'll do to start with!
Sorry Stroud Resident but I cannot "live & let live". I know from personal experience that UKIP is a refuge for supporters of the odious BNP & the EDL who realise that their ultra right-wing racist views will not yet get them elected so they support UKIP as the next best thing with the view of moving the party even more towards extreme views so that they can achieve their aims by stealth. UKIP is without doubt a racist party and I do not wish to "live" with supporters of such abhorrent views. Whilst on the subject of policy can VoteUKIPGetUKIP let us know the official party view on the following: Hunting with hounds, smoking in public places, reform of the NHS & income tax policy. That'll do to start with! JulianCBrown
  • Score: 1

10:51am Tue 9 Sep 14

VoteUKIPGetUKIP says...

Sorry Julian

As usual you are completely wrong. You seem to be completely out of touch and stuck in some permanent 1970s style class war.

At the risk of repeating myself uniquely amongst mainstream British political parties UKIP forbids membership to former members of the BNP. National Front, I believe also the EDL and other similar organisations.

Neither Labour nor Conservative do this and so your outrageous accusation is once more completely unfounded.

UKIP has not yet published its manifesto for the 2015 General Election, but I believe that the 2010 manifesto, which Nigel Farage is now on record as having repudiated, was in favour of hunting with hounds, public smoking, a more accountable NHS and a flat rate income tax, but please don't take this as Gospel, as I haven't had time to check.

Whilst we are discussing historic things I note that Natalie Bennett the Green Party leader has stated that the Greens wish to appeal to traditional socialists who feel that Labour has betrayed the working class and its core audience in terms of supporting Tory cuts etc. and in many other ways.

This view has also been aired in the Stroud media by former Green party councillor Carol Kambites amongst others.

I am sure that many socialists in Stroud will end up voting Green for this reason, particularly in view of David Drew's record in not voting against the Iraq war, voting to stop an investigation into the Iraq war and consistently, and almost uniquely for a Labour MP, voting repeatedly against equal homosexual rights.

I wonder how this voting record will play among Left inclined voters, particularly young voters, in Stroud.

It seems there is far more justification for calling Labour's candidate for Stroud David Drew a militarist and homophobe than there is for calling myself a racist.
Sorry Julian As usual you are completely wrong. You seem to be completely out of touch and stuck in some permanent 1970s style class war. At the risk of repeating myself uniquely amongst mainstream British political parties UKIP forbids membership to former members of the BNP. National Front, I believe also the EDL and other similar organisations. Neither Labour nor Conservative do this and so your outrageous accusation is once more completely unfounded. UKIP has not yet published its manifesto for the 2015 General Election, but I believe that the 2010 manifesto, which Nigel Farage is now on record as having repudiated, was in favour of hunting with hounds, public smoking, a more accountable NHS and a flat rate income tax, but please don't take this as Gospel, as I haven't had time to check. Whilst we are discussing historic things I note that Natalie Bennett the Green Party leader has stated that the Greens wish to appeal to traditional socialists who feel that Labour has betrayed the working class and its core audience in terms of supporting Tory cuts etc. and in many other ways. This view has also been aired in the Stroud media by former Green party councillor Carol Kambites amongst others. I am sure that many socialists in Stroud will end up voting Green for this reason, particularly in view of David Drew's record in not voting against the Iraq war, voting to stop an investigation into the Iraq war and consistently, and almost uniquely for a Labour MP, voting repeatedly against equal homosexual rights. I wonder how this voting record will play among Left inclined voters, particularly young voters, in Stroud. It seems there is far more justification for calling Labour's candidate for Stroud David Drew a militarist and homophobe than there is for calling myself a racist. VoteUKIPGetUKIP
  • Score: -1

9:32am Wed 10 Sep 14

Resident of Stroud says...

Julian reference you last post:
Saying all members of Ukip are racists is like saying anybody living in Surrey is a Tory or everybody in Newcastle is a Socialist. I don’t know your bad experience regarding Ukip but suspect it is more of an individual issue rather than Ukip policy.
However I will wholeheartedly agree with you that Ukip is being infiltrated by former BNP supporters when one learns that they are using Facebook to tell each other that the BNP is finished as a political force and to all vote Ukip.
In the last Euro election one could argue that almost half of Ukip’s increase in support, as compared to the 2009 election, are former BNP voters. The BNP vote went down by 763,904 votes while Ukip’s went up by 1,878,409. Those are the figures and one must draw their own conclusion.
Indeed Alan Sked, Ukip's founding father resigned from the leadership and left the party saying it contained members who "are racist and have been infected by the far-right.”
The image that Ukip are the BNP in blazers will not go away.
But the good news is that Ukip only have a short shelf life and will be history before long. Their ideology is described as Right-wing Euroscepticism but after the inevitable EU Referendum takes places they will have lost the main plank of their very existence. The Right Wing is already represented by the Tory party. They will have nowhere to go.
Julian reference you last post: Saying all members of Ukip are racists is like saying anybody living in Surrey is a Tory or everybody in Newcastle is a Socialist. I don’t know your bad experience regarding Ukip but suspect it is more of an individual issue rather than Ukip policy. However I will wholeheartedly agree with you that Ukip is being infiltrated by former BNP supporters when one learns that they are using Facebook to tell each other that the BNP is finished as a political force and to all vote Ukip. In the last Euro election one could argue that almost half of Ukip’s increase in support, as compared to the 2009 election, are former BNP voters. The BNP vote went down by 763,904 votes while Ukip’s went up by 1,878,409. Those are the figures and one must draw their own conclusion. Indeed Alan Sked, Ukip's founding father resigned from the leadership and left the party saying it contained members who "are racist and have been infected by the far-right.” The image that Ukip are the BNP in blazers will not go away. But the good news is that Ukip only have a short shelf life and will be history before long. Their ideology is described as Right-wing Euroscepticism but after the inevitable EU Referendum takes places they will have lost the main plank of their very existence. The Right Wing is already represented by the Tory party. They will have nowhere to go. Resident of Stroud
  • Score: 3

9:40am Wed 10 Sep 14

VoteUKIPGetUKIP says...

The words wishful and thinking spring to mind.
The words wishful and thinking spring to mind. VoteUKIPGetUKIP
  • Score: -2

10:55am Wed 10 Sep 14

Steve Robinson 49 says...

JulianCBrown wrote:
How on earth can the UKIP candidate for Stroud (parachuted in from Wiltshire I note because no-one from Stroud was prepared to align themselves publicly with Farage's rabble) realistically expect the Green Party to align itself to a racist party which wants to privatise the NHS, bring back hunting with hounds, relax the smoking ban, introduce a standard rate of income tax for all whether rich or poor etc. etc.

UKIP is not just a party of "fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists" but a very nasty stain on the British political landscape. Men and women died during the last war to protect us from the evils of the extreme right. The rise of UKIP is an affront to their sacrifice.

There is only one way to defeat the Tories in Stroud and rid us of the lapdog MP Carbuncle and that is a vote for David Drew.
Julian

Please could you contact me on my email address - robinsons@fsmail.net as a friend of yours is trying to locate you and has asked me to help.

Regards
Cllr Steve Robinson
Labour District Councillor for Nailsworth
[quote][p][bold]JulianCBrown[/bold] wrote: How on earth can the UKIP candidate for Stroud (parachuted in from Wiltshire I note because no-one from Stroud was prepared to align themselves publicly with Farage's rabble) realistically expect the Green Party to align itself to a racist party which wants to privatise the NHS, bring back hunting with hounds, relax the smoking ban, introduce a standard rate of income tax for all whether rich or poor etc. etc. UKIP is not just a party of "fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists" but a very nasty stain on the British political landscape. Men and women died during the last war to protect us from the evils of the extreme right. The rise of UKIP is an affront to their sacrifice. There is only one way to defeat the Tories in Stroud and rid us of the lapdog MP Carbuncle and that is a vote for David Drew.[/p][/quote]Julian Please could you contact me on my email address - robinsons@fsmail.net as a friend of yours is trying to locate you and has asked me to help. Regards Cllr Steve Robinson Labour District Councillor for Nailsworth Steve Robinson 49
  • Score: 0

10:01am Sat 13 Sep 14

Blind Blogger says...

Stroud Resident might care to browse this story: kettle, pot, black, calling - rearrange:

http://www.breitbart
.com/Breitbart-Londo
n/2014/09/12/Gove-Th
ree-Main-Parties-Sho
uld-Unite-Against-UK
IP
Stroud Resident might care to browse this story: kettle, pot, black, calling - rearrange: http://www.breitbart .com/Breitbart-Londo n/2014/09/12/Gove-Th ree-Main-Parties-Sho uld-Unite-Against-UK IP Blind Blogger
  • Score: -1

3:17pm Sat 13 Sep 14

Resident of Stroud says...

Well this local news report that Ukip Stroud considered running on a joint tickets with the Greens has certainly attracted national interest. Despite Ukipper's denials that it was never proposed, he/she has been on the back foot ever since. That is why I suppose a well known heavyweight UKIP blogger has come to his/her aid. The Blind Blogger could clearly see that the Stroud Ukipper was floundering and demoralised and has come up with an obscure internet link to help them out.
In fairness to Ukip and The Blind Blogger, I’ve redone it to make it easier for others to find.
But as usual with unbalanced fairy tales, please read it with a pinch of salt.

http://www.breitbart
.com/Breitbart-Londo
n/2014/09/12/Gove-Th
ree-Main-Parties-Sho
uld-Unite-Against-UK
IP
Well this local news report that Ukip Stroud considered running on a joint tickets with the Greens has certainly attracted national interest. Despite Ukipper's denials that it was never proposed, he/she has been on the back foot ever since. That is why I suppose a well known heavyweight UKIP blogger has come to his/her aid. The Blind Blogger could clearly see that the Stroud Ukipper was floundering and demoralised and has come up with an obscure internet link to help them out. In fairness to Ukip and The Blind Blogger, I’ve redone it to make it easier for others to find. But as usual with unbalanced fairy tales, please read it with a pinch of salt. http://www.breitbart .com/Breitbart-Londo n/2014/09/12/Gove-Th ree-Main-Parties-Sho uld-Unite-Against-UK IP Resident of Stroud
  • Score: 2

3:19pm Sat 13 Sep 14

Resident of Stroud says...

Okay I admit it is this site that fouls up the internet link and not the poster.
My apologies to Blind Blogger on that point.
Okay I admit it is this site that fouls up the internet link and not the poster. My apologies to Blind Blogger on that point. Resident of Stroud
  • Score: 2

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