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Young campaigner arrested in High Street

8:26am Wednesday 29th August 2007

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SHOPPERS watched in disbelief as a team of seven police officers dismantled an animal rights stall set up by two young campaigners in Stroud High Street.

Shortly after, one of the pair, Chris Potter, 17, was bundled into the back of a police car after mounting a sit down protest when officers demanded his name and address.

The youngster and friend Ziggy Ramone, 26, from Nailsworth, had been running a stall on Friday to raise awareness of animal testing and the fur trade.

But despite agreeing to move on, the first officer to arrive called for backup and Chris was arrested after refusing to give his details.

Police, who were called to investigate a complaint about the stall around 2.15pm, said the pair did not have a trading licence and were potentially obstructing a public highway.

While no trading licence was required, the pair were accepting donations and should technically have applied to the district council for a collection permit.

But many shoppers who saw the incident felt the police were heavy-handed and could have handled the situation in a less confrontational manner.

Town mayor John Marjoram, who witnessed the incident, was surprised by the police response.

"For the past 25 years there has never been a problem with people who are campaigning and not selling things," he said.

"It's part and parcel of being a liberal town and it helps add to the colour of the street.

"They were directly behind a letter box so I couldn't see how they were blocking the street.

"I felt it was extraordinary to have so many police there for two youngsters."

David Michael, 51, from Springhill, Stroud, also watched as officers made the arrest, dismantled the stall and seized a pot of donations.

"It was quite overwhelming and was an incredible over-reaction," he said.

"I think it's fantastic that young people are taking a stand as so many are disenfranchised these days."

Another shopper, Gill Rogers, who was visiting Stroud from Bristol, said: "Does it honestly take seven policemen to move on one young man?

"I didn't want to sign his petition but I did feel sorry for the guy."

Another shopper handed over £20 when he saw what happened.

Chris, who has campaigned for Gloucestershire Animal Action for the past year, sat on the floor in protest after what he felt was an unreasonable request for his details.

"For the police to turn up and start demanding my details I felt was a little intimidated," he said.

"We were just giving out information."

Ziggy, a professional model, echoed her friend's concerns.

"Lots of people stopped and we certainly weren't forcing our opinions on anyone," said the former Stroud High School pupil, who added that they never ask for money.

According to Stroud District Council's licensing department, groups do not require a permit to set up a stall if they are not trading.

Commercial services manager Phil Park said: "If people are not actually selling anything they do not need the council's consent."

However, a collection permit, which is available free of charge from the council, is required if money is handed over, even if it is a donation.

Chris was released by police without charge less than an hour after his arrest.

A Gloucestershire police spokesman said Chris, from Gloucester, was arrested for refusing to give his details.

"There are rules and regulations governing the setting up of these stalls," he said.

"If he had given his details in the first place, which is something he later did in the custody suite, it would have saved everybody a lot of time and hassle."

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Your Say YourStroud News and Journal

sharon Taylor, Tetbury says...
9:41am Wed 29 Aug 07

I am in disbelief at this article, what a disgusting way to treat these two youngsters.
As usual the Police wasting time and money when actual offences are taking place on the streets and being ignored.

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carina, stroud says...
10:40am Wed 29 Aug 07

so what will be done about it? the mayor saw it, will he do something? we are the tax payers the police should not be treating people this way or is this the police state where we just put up and shut up and let them act like thugs? thats what taxes pay for now is it, harrassment of young people with an opinion? is this a george orwell book or what?

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Gavin Osmond, Stroud says...
10:44am Wed 29 Aug 07

There's nothing quite like getting arrested to draw attention to your "cause" (or to yourself) - I would have thought this was the ideal outcome! I wouldn't be surprised if they called the police themselves...

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Chris Dowdeswell, Gloucester says...
12:08pm Wed 29 Aug 07

Gavin, the young man was arrested for not giving his PERSONAL information to a police officer who had NO right to take them in the first place. Believe me when I say animal rights campaigners do not need to contact the police in order to arrange harassment it happens every time we campaign.

It is always the case when you oppose the biggest industries on the planet. I talk obviously of the meat and phara industries.

Check out the GlosAnimalAction blog for more information
http://glosanimalact

ion.wordpress.com

Chris

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Chris Dowdeswell, Gloucester says...
12:10pm Wed 29 Aug 07

Sorry I meant Pharmaceutical not "Phara"?

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Gavin Osmond, Stroud says...
1:09pm Wed 29 Aug 07

I'm not saying he should have been arrested, just that it is the only reason why they've got themselves a spot in the SNAJ. I doubt that Pfizer's spies called in on this one, but I suppose you never know. You're pretty much preaching to the converted in Stroud, anyway, but it's always nice to have a receptive audience. The excessive response by the police in this case is a concern, nevertheless, as no laws were broken.

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Gavin Osmond, Stroud says...
1:09pm Wed 29 Aug 07

I'm not saying he should have been arrested, just that it is the only reason why they've got themselves a spot in the SNAJ. I doubt that Pfizer's spies called in on this one, but I suppose you never know. You're pretty much preaching to the converted in Stroud, anyway, but it's always nice to have a receptive audience. The excessive response by the police in this case is a concern, nevertheless, as no laws were broken.

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Dr David Mitchell, Stroud says...
1:30pm Wed 29 Aug 07


This simply demonstrates the stranglehold that Big Pharma has over the
Government and the police, whose behaviour on this occasion and others
was disgraceful. I find it sad that the police have nothing more useful to do
than this indulge in this nonsense.
I wonder what any of the police officers would have thought if, on returning home,
had found a family member dead or seriously ill, from an adverse drug reaction
which animal testing had indicated was safe for human use?

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Laura, Stroud says...
3:54pm Wed 29 Aug 07

As usual the police go for the easy targets, people who are trying to make the world a better place, taking up their own spare time to fight for helpless animals, where is the justice. There are plenty of people wasting their time with vandalism and violence, driving illegally, drinking under age, the list could go on, and so do they!!
Just let us campaign for the animals, they can't do it themselves.

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Andrew, Stroud says...
5:53pm Wed 29 Aug 07

Can't belive the police think they have the right to act like this!

The officers in question should be SACKED and jailed for kidnapping!

Is this Great Britian or Iran we're living in?

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George, Wales says...
6:43pm Wed 29 Aug 07

I know that the police have a difficult job to do, but the arresting officer in question is clearly a bully who thought he could get away with intimidating these people (whom I admire for their courage and their beliefs). This is not Krystallnacht in Germany 1938, these people weren't breaking the law, they have rights and this is a democracy and they had something to say. Fortunately though some good people of Stroud were on hand to put a stop to such bullying and abuse of power.

I wish these two young and brave people every success.

Freedom of expression, freedom of speech.

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Simone, Cheltenham says...
10:05pm Wed 29 Aug 07

It's really refreshing to see someone in a position such as Mayor to be so open-minded. He's a credit to Stroud. It's certainly made me want to live there! Shame on the police officer in question though - hopefully there will e an inquiry into why the officer thought ti would be ok to abuse his position.

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Marcus, UK says...
11:05pm Wed 29 Aug 07

This is appalling! I would suggest that everyone writes to the Chief Constable of Gloucestershire to complain about this:

timothy.brain@@glouc

estershire.pnn.polic

e.uk

Also write to the chair of the Independent Police Complaints Commission, Nick Hardwick:

nick.hardwick@ipcc.g

si.gov.uk


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Sylvester Barnett, Stroud says...
12:27am Thu 30 Aug 07

I stopped by the stall around lunchtime on Friday and was extremely encouraged by what I witnessed from these two individuals; both extremely intelligent and informed young people not afraid to stand up for what they believe in and take the time to make others aware. I really enjoyed talking to them and came away feeling very positive. Now sadly, I cannot say that same about those involved in the way they have been treated over this. I hope they will continue to hold such stalls and not be put off by such barbaric treatment.

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Gloucestershire Animal Action, Gloucester says...
12:38pm Thu 30 Aug 07

I would just like to thank everyone for being so supportive, we have received dozens of emails regarding the arrest and police harassment. Just to let everyone know Ziggy and Chris will be holding another stall in Stroud this Friday if anyone wishes to say hello.

Stroud is so receptive to important issues such as animal and human rights, climate change and many other issues which the majority of the UK are accepting as a fact of life.

We are currently working on a video in which we will be asking members of the public in Gloucester if they know what their rights are in regards to the police and protest.

I will post the video on our GlosAnimalAction blog when It's all finished!

Thanks,

Gloucestershire Animal Action

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Bryan Mills, Chalford says...
1:30pm Thu 30 Aug 07

I can't believe this, we hardly ever see a Police Officer on the streets of Stroud and then all of a sudden there's seven!!. If they were to spend as much time standing by the Four Clocks they could stop countless idiotic drivers who are continuously breaking the Law by not wearing seat belts and using Mobile Phones at the wheel!!!. Stop waisting taxpayers money and go get the real criminals, WIMPS!

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C Wallace, Bristol says...
1:34pm Thu 30 Aug 07

Good on you Chris and Ziggy for standing up to these bullies - keep up the good work and help get the message across of all the abuse that animals and now animal campaigners have to put up with!

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Mia, London says...
1:47pm Thu 30 Aug 07

carina wrote:
so what will be done about it? the mayor saw it, will he do something? we are the tax payers the police should not be treating people this way or is this the police state where we just put up and shut up and let them act like thugs? thats what taxes pay for now is it, harrassment of young people with an opinion? is this a george orwell book or what?
But this is a police state and there is no freedom of speech, not really! I come from a country where we had 40 (!) years of a police state – communism – and unfortunately after living in UK for 5 years it reminds me of the old times in my country. Nothing works in this country, the government only drains people for their money and they get nothing back. Taxes here are so high and you don’t pay police to protect you (do they ever actually do anything good?), you pay them to control people if they step out of line, meaning if they speak against what the government does and voicing their views. Same happens in communism, you can’t voice your views without getting arrested. The Czechs managed to throw off communism by a peaceful united demonstration and now we have a real freedom a lot more of it then here, that’s for sure! My British husband sees it and so sick of it here, planning on leaving.

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den, brighton says...
5:41pm Thu 30 Aug 07

This is not a one off incident. Animal Rights campaigners across the country have had their stalls,petitions and any donations seized by the Police.
In the 20 years I have run street stalls we have never had to apply for permits, indeed on many occasions the police have spoken to us at our stalls.
There is definitely a directive behind this aggressive action.
This has had terrible consequences for our group, as we can no longer accept donations to help needy animals in our area.
All I can think is that perhaps we are making an impact and they want to shut us up.
Yet again the animals lose out and compassionate people end up with a conviction for a very petty offence.
Shame on the police.

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Kathy Musker, Cheshire says...
7:07pm Thu 30 Aug 07

How ironic that on the day Gordon Brown unveils a statue of Nelson Mandela and spouts about our so called 'Freedom's' this happens to those who exercise those freedoms. Make no mistake we do not have freedom of speech nor freedom of expression in this country! If you ever need a policeman if you being mugged or robbed there is never one available yetjust let there be an animal rights demo or stall then you will get an abundance of them!

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Chris Gale, Chippenham says...
7:25pm Thu 30 Aug 07

Would the police have sent 7 police officers and demanded identity etc if it had been a Countryside Alliance stand??!



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Andrew, Bath says...
9:42pm Thu 30 Aug 07

As someone who supports the Countryside Alliance I can tell you that heavy-handed police actions are also directed at pro-hunting campaigners. The fact is these young people were expressing their views in a courteous and civilised way - for that they get my full respect and support! People on both sides of the debate oppose cruelty to animals and unnecessary suffering. We should be free to unite over issues like those raised by these young people and concerned by the way the role of our police force has changed under New Labour.

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Helen Weeks, Somerset says...
9:42pm Thu 30 Aug 07

If the stall holders had been wearing red coats, and had called themselves 'foxhunters', then the police would have passed on by.

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Kathy, Cheshire says...
10:42pm Thu 30 Aug 07

Andrew of Bath, you are not on the same side as me if you support the CA, don't kid yourself! The CA do not oppose cruelty to animals they commit it!

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Jo, York says...
7:46am Fri 31 Aug 07

Well done police!!! NOT!While children are been attacked by perverts , chavs are vandalising what ever they want , cars are been stolen, people been raped, old people been mugged in the streets etc, yet where are you when needed? In your cop shop sitting on your back sides playing cards or watching tv, to **** lazy to do anything about it. Yet you hear there are a few people standing behind a table with leaflets on it and you are there in a flash and plenty of you aswell - (hmmm I thought u are always saying you are short on numbers!! arresting them???) While right behind you real criminals walk straight past you un-noticed. You should be ashamed of yourselves it is pathetic. Becuase you can't be bothered and are not clever enough to find criminals who need locking up you pick on easy targets just to get your statistics in the books looking good. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

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alan leggett, london says...
9:19am Fri 31 Aug 07

Just another example of how we are living in a police state. No freedom of speech. No right to protest. No freedom. Well, except for their freedom to do whatever they like and account to no-one. They seem to forget that without the public purse, they wouldn't get paid...

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Anita Young, Ipswich Suffolk says...
1:22pm Fri 31 Aug 07

The Police demonstrated heavy handedness - an abuse of their power under the Human Rights Act. Do we have a democracy or a police state - dictatorship ? As the saying goes if you prevent peaceful protest violent protest is ineveitable. Wouldn't Police time be better spent investigating crime?

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Daniel, klee says...
2:32pm Fri 31 Aug 07

Sadly, the police in this country has long sold itself to the devil. The nupkins who arrested these youngsters wouldn't hesitate for a moment to torture to death babies if they were asked to by their "superiors". They just follow orders like the watchmen in Belson.

Now, I know that some officers have their hearts in the right place - but the great bulk of the British police force is completely corrupted, has no moral compass, and is happily defecating over the public, tearing to shreds every last right that we have.

It's simply ridiculous to pretend that Britain is a democracy any more. It's filth like the officers involved in this CRIMINAL attack on these youngsters that are RUINING everything this country once stood for.


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Chris Gale, Chippenham says...
6:10pm Fri 31 Aug 07

Andrew of Bath, as Kathy says you are not on the same side as us.
The police from the West Country would have tugged their forelock if it had been your nasty bunch of sadists running a stall.

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Andrew, Bath says...
7:45pm Fri 31 Aug 07

Dear Chris,
As we do not know each other, your description of me and my friends as "a nasty bunch of sadists" is very revealing... about you. At it happens the last time I was engaged in raising (substantial) amounts of money was for our local Cats and Dogs home. I wrote to support these two young people because they were unfairly treated by the police while expressing their views in a civilised and courteous way. Perhaps you could learn from their example and refrain from jumping to unwarrented conclusions?

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Kathy, Cheshire says...
9:42pm Fri 31 Aug 07

Andrew , if you support the CA then you support animals being ripped to shreds for pleasure so Chris's description whether he knows you or not is very apt. To support this group of British Field Sport Society members to give them the real name before they tried to make it respectable by pretendingthey care about country matters. There are NO excuses for cruelty. And to say you then collect for a cat and dog home shows gross hypocrisy! There are no 'unwarranted conclusions' if you support the CA you support cruelty, do you think the foxes getting ripped to shreds do not feel pain and terror just like the dogs and cats you collect for!

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Andrew, Bath says...
10:28pm Fri 31 Aug 07

Dear Kathy,

I am sad that you are so quick to accuse a complete stranger of being a "hypocrite" as well as a "sadist". Might I ask you why you react in such a violent and abusive way? All I did was comment in support of the two young people unfairly treated by the police - a story which you seem to want to hijack to make your own views about foxhunting plain. This is actually a story about the right to freedom of expression - something you seem surprisingly unwilling to allow others.

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Kathy, Cheshire says...
12:56am Sat 1 Sep 07

Andrew, where you are misunderstanding is that those of us who TRULY care about any animal care about ALL animals and you freely state you support the CA, an organisation who enjoys seeing animals ripped apart for fun . I am not nor ever have been been abusive or violent. and to try to accuse Chris and I of such is a tactic used to deflect the real issue here. The violence comes from those who enjoy or those who condone those who enjoy ripping animals to shreds. This issue is about those who stand up for animals and those who do then get abused by the police. Freedom of expression does not mean one can support cruelty to animals i.e. support the CA and go unanswered. Sorry you do not like the facts but if you support cruelty then you will be criticised by those who TRULY care about animals. I am happy for everyone to have any freedoms they like as long as those freedoms do not mean animal abuse.

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paul may, olathe kansas u.s.a. says...
1:24am Sat 1 Sep 07

like all things in life, the original point has been hijacked by others!

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Maureen Sheridan, Ocho Rios, jamaica says...
2:22pm Sat 1 Sep 07

As someone born and raised in Warwickshire, and the founder and operator of The Animal House Jamaica, I was very surprised to read this story and to learn that over-reaction by the police is no longer the sole preserve of the third world. I would like to offer our support and admiration to the two young people involed in this nasty incident and suggest that it not deter them from future efforts on behalf of animals. BTW we have just gone through a hurricane - there really are more important things to concentrate on:)

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fox, south east says...
2:28pm Sat 1 Sep 07

sham on the police did any one get this on tape . ? i wish the 2 ppl well and say to them never give up , whens the next stall please

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Keith Mann, says...
2:33pm Sat 1 Sep 07

What kind of a society seeks to silence those who protest for change. Are we in China suddenly? The violence these two campaigners seek to address is committed daily on countless sentient individuals in slaughterhouses, animal farms and laboratories and far more radical action than theirs is called for to end these horrors. If our policemen and women are sent to silence peaceful protesters they will surely create a greater problem for themselves and those who exploit the animals as the Animal Liberation Front gathers support and creates controversy.

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Kathy, Cheshire says...
7:07pm Sat 1 Sep 07

Paul from Kansas, the original point has not been hijacked, the point made by a fellow animal lover was that if this had been a Countrysdie Alliance stall this would not have happened. That is actually keeping to the point which is AR campaigners being abused whilst they stand up against animal abuse and the bigoted attitude of the police which would not have been shown had others been doing a stall and the stall had not been about animal rights issues. The CA and those who support them are animal abusers so the points made are valid. Those who campaign for animals are against ALL animal abuse whichever way it is committed.

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George, Wales says...
7:25pm Sat 1 Sep 07

I agree with Chris and KAthy regarding countryside alliance stalls. The police would have let them collect money uninterrupted, just as they turn a blind eye to illegal hunting today as well as numerous accounts of hunt saboteurs being beaten up every season, as well as aggravated trespass. I find it ironic that you collect for an animal shelter for cats and dogs, considering that hunts up and down the country rip domestic pets apart every season, as well as attack any person who gets in the way.

These attacks on people, property and domestic pets were even brought up in hunt debate in the House of Lords during the passage of the recent bill:

http://www.publicati
ons.parliament.uk/pa
/ld200304/ldhansrd/v
o041012/text/41012-3
2.htm

Many policemen and women are fine brave people but it seems that their role in society is becoming more political, and political policing is now very much in vogue, notice the recent SOCPA act passed in 2005 which is a gross infringement of civil liberties and supportive of big business and vivisection companies. This is an outrageous situation.

I would have far more respect for your views if you did not belong to a 'charity' who promote the mindless killing of our wildlife for fun and pleasure by a small minority of generally very affluent people. The vast amount of money (millions) that the CA gets annually in donations from rich patrons would be far better off spent on starving children and other noble causes. This has gone on far too long.

The abysmal lack of prosecution and police action against hunters openly flouting the law, when compared with the grossly heavy handed response of the police to two young people simply with a market stall in the city centre only shows that not everyone is equal before the law, and that democracy in this country is a complete and utter joke.

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Andrew, Bath says...
8:29pm Sat 1 Sep 07

Gosh, once again a tirade directed against the Countryside Alliance - an organisation with hundreds of thousands of members which campaigns for issues as diverse as saving rural Post Offices and promoting organic food. You simply assume that hunting, shooting and fishing are always "mindless killing for fun." Might I suggest this "black-and-white" morality is too simplistic. Take Falconry for example and the work of Rescue Centres for Birds of Prey: would you rather we refused to save the lives of orphaned chicks or birds found injured on the roads (like the young buzzard hit by a car I picked up alive by the side of the road recently)? Should we try to feed them a strict vegetarian diet and watch them starve? Of course not - they are carnivores! But the meat they need to live and recover inevitably involves the death of another animal - my shooting a rabbit to feed to a sick owl for example. Perhaps you would like to keep such rescue birds caged forever? Of course not! So we adopt the responsibility of parenting these birds and teach them to fly free as nature intended. But an orphaned bird raised by a human will naturally hunt if allowed to fly free - as nature intended. Is this "cruel"? Do you really want to label the work of all Birds of Prey Rescue Centres as "animal abuse"?

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Vegan Pirates, London says...
10:07pm Sat 1 Sep 07

Absolutely unbelievable, sounds like the whole force needs to go back to the academy. If they carried on like that around here they'd be seriously disciplined (and probably sent to Glocester)

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Kathy, Cheshire says...
6:26pm Sun 2 Sep 07

Andrew, give it up. You are a supporter of the CA,'nuf said. No amount of back peddling and trying to justify your support of and perhaps participation in cruelty will let you off the hook. Excuses, excuses, we have heard it all before! If you want to really care about all animals stop supporting those who enjoy abusing them and get out there, like the people whom this article is about, and do something about cruelty instead of condoning it.
ps thanks George for your support.

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Kathy, Cheshire says...
6:31pm Sun 2 Sep 07

ps never saw the CA doing anything about my local post office which has just closed (rural) nor promoting anything around here or anywhere else apart from their sad bloodthirsty pastimes just using situations to their advantage to try to gain them brownie points so they can carry on their bloodlust. Did they march to Westminster and break in to the House of Commons about post offices being closed! No! We are not fooled!

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Adrian Appley, Bromley, Kent says...
7:57pm Sun 2 Sep 07

Yet again the police have shown themselves to be on the side of the pharmaceutical industry and not the general public. They are so desperate to persecute peaceful demonstrators who are trying to make people aware of the abominable cruelties that go on in the greedy business world that they will clutch at anything. As a fellow Animal Rights activist I , too, have been subjected to this illegal bully boy tactics by the police but I always, on principle, challenge them and they HATE it. They are not the Gods they think they are. As one commentator so rightly said "If the stall holders had been wearing red coats and had called themselves foxhunters then the police would have passed on by". How true that is. Gloucestershire police disgust me.

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Andrew, Bath says...
9:05pm Sun 2 Sep 07

Silence in response to the example I used of my involvement with rescuing birds of prey. Yet back to foxhunting again immediately - which is nothing to do with this story -what is it with you guys and red coats?! Some sort of class-war-hate-trigg

er there or what? - sorry that I'm not "posh" enough to fulfil your fantasy stereotype. Anyway, thank you Kathy for at least being honest enough to admit that my support of the Countryside Alliance kind-of rules my views as automatically wrong before I say anything. Obviously there is no point in continuing to respond to blind accusations against me of "hypocracy" "sadism" "bloodlust" and "cruelty" etc. but I'll end with an appeal to your sense of humour. Several people have stated (without evidence) that: "If the stall holders had been wearing red coats and had called themselves foxhunters then the police would have passed on by". Go on then. Try it. It would be fun - dress up in these all-important red coats of yours and pretend to be campaigning for foxhunting - just once - in the same place at the same time using the same methods... and secretly film the results! Perhaps the Police will arrive and tug forlocks and bow etc. as you predict: if so you have been proved right in this case and good luck to you (and you'll have the evidence on film to show side-by-side with your original footage!) Personally, I hope the Police have learned a real lesson here as a result of the ORIGINAL story we are commenting on - and that both Animal Rights Campaigners and even (shock horror!)members of the Countryside Alliance are ordinary people who will now be allowed freedom to express their views openly because we ought to live in a country where everyone is entitled to be treated with courtesy and respect: especially those with whom we disagree.

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Maria, UK says...
9:46pm Sun 2 Sep 07

With crime and anti social behaviour rife in the UK it is unbelievable that peaceful stall holders are harassed by members of the police force. Could this be a case of discrimination against the right to free speech for a compassionate cause? It certainly seems so, yes animals need human voices to speak up for them, you see they can't speak for themselves! And if it's ok for high street retailers to sell the products of animal suffering and sweat shops why is it wrong to hand out leaflets that might encourage others to buy cruelty free? These young people should be thanked for their efforts and receive an apology from the police officers involved. I despair of the ignorance and injustice in this country and I wonder if freedom to be a vegetarian or freedom to think outside of the box is next on the list of things the government would like to ban. Perhaps they're already planning hard labour for those who even speak up for animals amongst friends! I'm so glad this story is out there so everyone can read what Chris and Ziggy had to put up with in order to do something good, they are heroes not villains, the police should concentrate on bothering criminals and leave caring people alone.

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Kathy, Cheshire says...
11:21pm Sun 2 Sep 07

Same old same old Andrew, this is nothing to do with people's class or what colour coats they wear but their morality and ethics. That old 'class' argument is just that, tired and old. Killing for fun is just plain wrong and so is supporting it.

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CHRIS GALE, Wiltshire, UK says...
5:13am Mon 3 Sep 07

Andrew of Bath, you are a member of the British Field Sports Society, it only changed its name to the CA when it was clear your nasty hobbies were under threat and you had to try and dupe the public into thinking you cared about other issues.
If God forbid we get a Tory government, you and your sadist friends will not be on here trying to make out you care about anything other than bloodlust, because the old 'natural' order would have been restored.
Did not see your lot protesting in the 80s against the injustices of the Tory government!

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Mary Alice Pollard, Cornwall's Voice for Animals UK, Cornwall UK says...
9:16am Mon 3 Sep 07

This is absolutely disgusting when people find themselves in hot water because they set up a stall which supplies information on animal welfare issues - we who man stalls from time to time do not go around shoving information into the hands of the public - they come to us, chat about the issues, and take the literature if they wish. They sign petitions and donate money to the charity if there is one particular charity hosting the stall - and bravo for doing so !

These stalls do not ' sell ' the brochures, they are supplied to the public for EDUCATION and INFORMATION purposes only ! And why would the police be there demainding personal details when NO LAW HAS BEEN BROKEN - do the police not know the laws of the land ? ! More and more this country and those who are put into any kind of ' power ' are living and working within a man made black and white society - LOOK OUT THE WINDOW FOLKS, IT IS LIVING COLOUR OUT THERE ! Just because there is a badge doesn't give one the right to inflict heavy handed ( verbal or physicall ) authority on people ! I AM SO GLAD THE MAYOR WITNESSED THIS AND HAS SPOKEN OUT IN SUPPORT OF THIS STALL AND THE PEOPLE MANNING IT ! Well done - we need more people like him standing up for the rights of people and the causes they represent because more and more people who dare to speak out against any kind of cruelty are being silenced -:( and as long as no one is breaking laws or causing distruption or damage - we should have the right to leaflet and educate peacefully as we have been doing for years - and to collect ' donations ' to help those who *** give *** their time and energy to help our animal animal friends ! ( I wonder - would the same thing have happened if this stall was fitted up with information on child abuse - or the abuse of senior citizens ? PROBABLY NOT !

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Gemma Nichols, GB says...
9:21am Mon 3 Sep 07

The multi-billion pound pharma industry has much to lose from those exposing the truth behind animal tested products. The drug companies have directors, consultants, advisers etc. on all major govt. hospital. university boards & this ensures having the establishment on their side, hence the police presence to stop anyone exposing the truth about their products.

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George, Wales says...
5:59pm Mon 3 Sep 07

Andrew, you wrote "Silence in response to the example I used of my involvement with rescuing birds of prey. Yet back to foxhunting again immediately - which is nothing to do with this story -what is it with you guys and red coats?! Some sort of class-war-hate-trigg


er there or what?"

OK Andrew,I was going to let this go but I will take you up on it. Can you explain, therefore, why the CA campaigns for the 'right' of its members to shoot captive game birds clean out of the sky? Some of them have been born in captivity and not even seen the light of day, and as soon as your members let them go on big estates they are blown to bits. How do you reconcile this with your care of wild birds? Do you go shooting birds, like many of the members of the CA do? Do you deny that the CA campaigns for the right to kill wild animals?

Do you go foxhunting? Does the CA not support bloodsports in this country? as Kathy says, and she is right, during the 1980s the british fields sports society did absolutely nothing whatsoever to save rural schools from being closed, nor did they do anything during the BSE crisis affecting farmers during the early 1990s. Only when foxhunting was to be abolished did the CA campaign on these issues (very little, I might add, in relation to foxhunting). And the only reason why they did so was because in the words of Janet GEorge, CA official 'we have to wrap up hunting in the rural fabric, because everybody hates hunting and loves the countryside'. Jathy is right. We are not fooled.

Perhaps you can explain to me why during the CA march through london why people who did not support hunting were not allowed to march at all. Perhaps you can explain to me too why rural workers, 30% of whom still live in tied cottages, and had nothing to do with hunting, were told to attend the march, with the threat of the loss of their jobs and their homes if they didn't attend.

A class issue? I like that one.
Perhaps you can tell me then why the House of Lords kept throwing out the bill (and wasting more taxpayers' money in doing so), even though the public are fully in favour of a foxhunting ban. Perhaps you can explain to me, if this is not a class issue, why the conservative party opposed the ban on foxhunting, why most of the royal family hunt (charles gave the workers on his estate the day off with pay to attend the march, but he doesn't do so for Third World poverty protest marches), and why many donors to the CA are wealthy businesmen, some of whom are property developers (that's really pro countryside, isn't it).

Perhaps you can answer my questions, directly, please.

Kathy is right. We are not fooled

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George, Wales says...
6:08pm Mon 3 Sep 07

One last thing Andrew, regarding the stall.

When you consider what your members get up to every season,such as illegal hunting, aggravated trespass, assault, beatings,ABH, GBH, savaging of family pets, public vandalism and a host of other crimes, which the police ignore, do you honestly think they are going to stop you from holding a stall in the market?

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Maggie, West sussex says...
10:02pm Mon 3 Sep 07

We are constantly being told by the police that they are unable to catch criminals and solve crimes because 'They do not have the resources'so how much did it cost to send out police and vans to arrest these young people for handing out leaflets?What heinous crimes were being committed while the police were otherwise engaged arresting leaflet distributors? It is very sad that in todays world it is a crime to be caring and compassionate, to be called a 'Domestic Terrorist'because we cannot allow abuse, torture and cruelty to carry on unnoticed. So we hand out leaflets to bring it to the publics attention at the risk of being arrested. It is not just animal rights protesters, but anyone young or old who wishes to protest about an injustice. We are living in a police state, under draconian rules. Andrew from Bath who is a member of the countryside alliance,or if they would be known by thier real name'Killers and torturers of all animals countrywide' You are no different to the scientists who inject poison in to beagle puppies, or inject mice with the notorious LD50 poison ,or force tubes in to the throats of ducks and geese to enlarge their liver so you can eat foise gras. The hunts are flouting the law with impunity because most of the hunt are magistrates, judges and landowners. In fact, one landowner who allows hunting and digging out on his land is a candidate for the position of High Sheriff of West Sussex! And yes I do have a job, a family, and a mortgage. I care passionately for the environment and do as much as I can to help the people who are suffering in the third world countries. I am vegan, an animal rights activist and a hunt monitor - The last two mean I am subjected to violence,intimidatio

n,humiliation and degradation at the hands of the hunt, its supporters and the police.I have a choice though: I could stay at home and ignore whats going on, but without us the animals that are suffering every day have no hope. So if handing out leaflets means we get arrested, then so be it.

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Andrew, Bath says...
11:09pm Mon 3 Sep 07

Dear George,

I wasn't going to write further here as people are constantly straying way from the point of this story - which is about freedom of expression. I've also found that my comments inevitably produce insults - and no one likes being repeatedly insulted (it's also not a good way to try to change someone's mind!) But you have raised some serious issues here and I would not like you to think that I had refused to think about your views. So here goes...

You write about shooting "captive birds clean out of the sky." Sheep, goats, pigs, cows, chickens etc are "captive" and we kill and eat them (often using intensive industrial farming methods and nasty ways of killing animals which I strongly oppose)so not being a vegetarian it would be a bit hypocritical of me to object to shooting a pheasant to make game pie or catching a river trout to eat. The mass killing of newly-released birds you describe would be something I'd want no part of - but I honestly don't know of any gamekeepers today who would recognise your rather Victorian picture of shooting. I wouldn't want to defend killing anything unless you can eat it or unless that species' numbers need to be controlled for a good reason.

You ask "do you go foxhunting?" - sorry no I don't - I couldn't afford to go abroad and it's illegal here at the moment. But I guess the reason people who didn't support foxhunting were not "allowed" on the 500,000 strong "CA march through London" was that it was a pro- foxhunting march. I think the idea that rural workers were forced to march is just an urban myth - but if you can prove it I'm right there with you in condeming forcing anyone to campaign for something they don't want to.

I do know that your ban on foxhunting has resulted in double the number of foxes being killed - something no one wanted - and that these foxes are now being snared, shot, poisoned and gased. (anyone join me in trying to ban snares?) The ban is an unintentional disaster for animal welfare, and will need to be revisited for that reason alone. Instead of banning hunting, it might have been better from your perspective simply to add the fox to the list of protected species that it is illegal to kill by any method.

As for the House of Lords - well they are (in theory!)an assembly of the most eminent and well-informed experts in Europe: the old hereditry peers were not a majority even then. The ban was forced through to distract labour back-benchers from the Iraq War (another policy of your hero Tony Blair I strongly oppose, I'm afraid.) Yes, some Lords are wealthy landowers who have generations of experience of managing the countryside and who opposed the ban... and yes some donors to the CA are wealthy; but then Paul McCartney isn't exactly poor and I think he's got every right to give his money to the LACS if he wants.

Your final list of accusations as to what us CA supporters get up to in our spare time is pretty shocking, but honestly unrealistic. Just because someone is a member of LACS does not mean they are automatically planting bombs, or making death threats to scientists, or desecrating the graves of family members related to people who hunt. Please accept that I think you are honest in your views, well-intentioned in your campaigns and sincere in your beliefs. I utterly condemn violence from any side in this debate - and I hope you do too? When you think of the many hundreds of thousands of CA supporters like me - countrymen, nurses, teachers, vets, doctors, plumbers, young and old, black and white, straight and gay, rich and poor - I hope you allow at least the possibility that we are not all wholly evil? Misguided no doubt in your eyes, but not deserving of such abuse and intimidation. And perhaps even entitled to some basic courtesy in debate.

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Gavin Osmond, Stroud says...
11:57am Tue 4 Sep 07

Let's get one thing straight here: the police couldn't care less about the pharmaceutical. In this case, they probably got a call from someone and turned up to find a couple of scruffy individuals talking about animal rights and didn't want it to grow into anything significant. Yes, they went too far for no good reason, but the conspiracy theories make some of you sound pretty crazy. Large-scale protests may draw some attention, but a couple of "activists" giving out leaflets in the middle of Stroud is not going to bother any large firms or their insiders in the corridors of power. In fact, they're already capitalising on this kind of thing by selling "Organic" and animal-friendly products. So, yes, Section 50 is unreasonable and police methods need some serious attention, but this incident has nothing to do with "big pharma".

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Gavin Osmond, Stroud says...
12:12pm Tue 4 Sep 07

That should have read pharmaceutical industry :-)

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Francesca, London says...
1:55pm Tue 4 Sep 07

My total support to Chris and Ziggy, don't ever give up your campaigns

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Jeremy Mowforth, Stroud says...
2:24pm Tue 4 Sep 07

A generation of kids are making many peoples lives unbearable and the police do nothing, property is being damaged or stolen and the police do nothing and yet here we see time and resources totally wasted. The real issue however is the suppression of free speech and the tactics of a police state pandering to the pharmaceuticals. I would like to see those wrongfully arrested given substantial compensation and a full apology from the very poorly trained officers involved.

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SuzieB, Hove, East Sussex says...
2:37pm Tue 4 Sep 07

Gavin, the police don't care about the pharmaceutical industry but they are under orders to carry out a job and these orders ultimately come down from the Home Office. Animal Rights campaigners who are giving out good and clear information about animal testing, livestock farming or any other form of animal exploitation have been demonised by this government. Animal Rights stalls are being targeted by the police when other neighbouring stalls are left alone - yes, even those taking donations. Ask yourself why. In my experience from holding information stalls, the public is not happy about animal experimentation and the number of court cases running on both sides of the Atlantic concerning the fatal side effects from some animal tested drugs has made them even more aware that using animals isn't the way forward. What we see today is the escalating politicisation of our police force. Corporations have the government's ear and there is big money to be made from all kinds of animal exploitation. The same tactics are being introduced to stifle the peace and environmental movement too. How long will it be before those demonstrating for a school crossing will also feel the heavy hand of the law? This must be nipped in the bud before we have lost ALL our civil rights in this country

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Gloucestershire Animal Action, Gloucester says...
5:02pm Tue 4 Sep 07

It has everything to do with big pharma unfortunately. Our group had 40 police officers present for our demonstration against Cheltenham science Festival including Ian Skivens who heads up the national extremist tactical co-ordination unit which was set up in response to the campaign at newchurch guinea pig breeders. Pharmaceutical giants have told the home office if they don't crush the AR movement they will up and move to somewhere else, the response was NETCU. During our protests the NETCU handbook has been referred to on many occasions and contains information and legislation which the cops use to move us away from an area or put insane limitations on our protest. To give you an idea of how this isnt the first instance of police stupidity we have had 26 arrest in Gloucestershire (many in the last month) and 1 charged (with refusing to give his details). The police are now saying the CCTV evidence which proves the one activist was innocent has been destroyed during floods (in Glos) when the footage was stored in Cheltenham station!?!? Check out a few of our videos (Search youtube for Gloucestershire Animal Action) for a little taste of Gloucestershires "Finest"! - Thanks (Rant over) :)

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George, Wales says...
6:26pm Tue 4 Sep 07

Dear Andrew,

I find it strange that a person who ostensibly cares about animals, like you purport to do, can be a member of such a blood junkie organisation. Why are you a member of the CA?

Captive game bird shooting goes on on estates up and down the country. Illegal hunting goes on every season, the police don't care and turn a blind eye, yet in the past there has always been enormous resources to police hunt saboteurs. Double standards? you bet ya.

you mentoin the figure of 500,000 on the CA march through london, it was not that figure, it was something around the region of 400,000, and that number had been swelled by thousands of children and as said, rural workers who were threatened wtih the loss of their jobs and their homes if they did not attend the march.

http://www.publicati

ons.parliament.uk/pa

/ld200304/ldhansrd/v

o041012/text/41012-3

2.htm

animal rights activists are policed heavily, very heavily, witness what happened here with the two people on this stall in Stroud. If that is not harrassment, then what is? I have known similar situations with persons protesting against vivisection up and down the country. Recently fourteen campaigners against the Oxford Animal lab, charged with
various public order offences, walked free on May 30th after
revelations of a police stitch-up. When violence is used by AR members then it is splattered all over the press and the police are there before the trouble starts,in the case of huntsmen however they simply don't want to know.
You mention that the House of Lords are, in theory, 'an assembly of the most eminent and well-informed experts in Europe.' That may be the case, but they were not put there by the people, they are unelected and no country in Europe has such an antiquated institution in their legislature. The HOL have no place in the legislature of this country, the judiciary may be, but not the legislature, they are not put there by the people, and this country is supposed to be a democracy (some joke).

Andrew, you also mention 'I do know that your ban on foxhunting has resulted in double the number of foxes being killed - something no one wanted'.

Please cite your evidence for this, as this is ridiculous statement. I am not saying that you have deliberately lied here, but rather you are mistaken, or somebody is just feeding you propaganda. I've heard a lot of this from the CA over the years, that the ban would lead to an explosion in numbers (a lie), that tens of thousands of rural jobs would be lost (another lie), so where does this figure come from?

Finally, I ask again, for someone who is so ostensibly concerned for animals, why do you belong to an organisation whose members kill animals for fun and pleasure? (not to mention the hounds who are killed at the age of 4, by a bullet to the head becuase they cannot run anymore). Recently a video emerged of members of the Sholtren Hunt punching the air and whooping with delight as their hounds tore open the womb of a pregnant vixen and gobbled down her unborn cubs. Is this healthy behaviour? do you think this should be allowed to happen?

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Hella G., Crowborough, says...
6:48pm Tue 4 Sep 07

Gavin O., I think you need to go out and about a bit more often to find out the truth.The police or rather "lackeys" of the government do try and thwart legitimate, peaceful protest at any opportunity. You obviously never heard about all the thousands of pounds they have to pay out in compensation to protesters who have been arrested and even charged on the most spurious grounds.Sometimes several police officers are present even if there are only a few protesters at any given location,so once again you show your ignorance by saying that only "large scale protests may draw some attention". Finally, I think you need to adopt a less arrogant & condescending attitude towards animal rights protesters. Calling them 'scruffy individuals" says everything about YOUR state of mind.

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Human Rights ActION, Luton, Bedfordshire says...
7:45pm Tue 4 Sep 07

The comments about the police violating human rights is correct. Activists who have the stalls trashed, detained in a cell and not charged and any other tactic designed to thwart freedom of expression have a right to take the Police to Court under teh Human Rights Act 1998.
Please let me know if you wish to know more about this or the campaign Human Rights ActION .
Mobile 07810 025818
Peter

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Gavin Osmond, Stroud says...
10:48am Wed 5 Sep 07

Whoa there, I'm agreeing that the police overreacted here, but that's pretty typical of them. Unfortunately, recent legislation *does* allow them to demand your details if they have any suspicion that you might have any intention to cause any problems at all. As for describing them as "scruffy individuals", I'm trying to put myself in the position of a policeman, here. They're too used to peaceful demonstrations turning into something much more problematic and - quite unreasonably - feel the need to put the frighteners on people they think might cause trouble. Yes, the police will crack down in a heavy handed way, but the people who are not taking a direct interest are large multinational companies - not in each individual case. The police don't suddenly hear that someone is picking on their precious pharmaceutical companies and send the boys out - chances are, someone more mainstream called the police and told them a couple of scruffy kids were causing trouble and that's it.

The fact is that there are lot of young people in this country causing a lot of problems for a lot of people. The legal situation is such that the only thing the police can do is indescriminately arrest people that they think may cause trouble, in a lot of cases. It's hardly the right way of approaching the situation and leads to growing resentment.

This is an issue of civil liberties, not animal testing specifically (although any group that sounds like the infamous ALF are likely to get special attention from the police because of their known criminal activities).

As for all this stuff about the CA, you bet they'd have no trouble running a stall - because they'd get permission, first and they'd talk to the police like adults and answer their questions.

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Gavin Osmond, Stroud says...
10:56am Wed 5 Sep 07

The issue, here, is the following:

---

(From http://www.crimeredu
ction.gov.uk/cso01.h
tm)

POWERS TO TACKLE ANTI-SOCIAL BEHAVIOUR

Power to require name and address for anti-social behaviour
Power of a constable in uniform under section 50 of the Police Reform Act 2002 to require a person whom he has reason to believe to have been acting, or to be acting, in an anti-social manner to give his name and address.

---

This kind of woolly language is intentionally designed to allow the police to pick up "troublemakers". Perhaps this is unreasonable, but they can easily make a reasonable case for demanding your details.

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mary knott, East Kent says...
1:43am Thu 6 Sep 07

Absolutely appalled at the police interfering with the animal activists in this way. This is a total travesty and indicative of the way peaceful protests are being curbed in relation to anything to do with animal welfare. These people are entitled to have their say for what is, after all, a good and decent cause.
How dare they be treated in this shabby way. With all the real crime and terrorism in our country it is a DISGRACE that police resources should be used in this way. Why dont they do some proper police work?
Get rid of all the drug dealers, car thieves, boy racers, credit card fraudsters, illegal immigrants, paedophiles, child abusers, the list is endless. THAT'S where the general public want to see effective police work - not wasted on decent people voicing decent opinions again animal abuse

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Peter Goodchild, Wootton Bassett says...
10:48am Thu 6 Sep 07

I think what Chris and Ziggy were doing was 100% brill! My group do much the same things.The police are a disgrace. Why don't they go and get some real criminals?I walked next to Ziggy on the Oxford lab demo on Saturday, good for you Ziggy.
Vegan regards,
Peter. Swindon Animal Concern.

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Anon., says...
9:11pm Fri 14 Sep 07

What happened to freedom of speech?
I thought this was England, not China!

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HenryG, Stroud says...
10:16am Sat 23 Aug 08

Andrew,
I think you have been treated a little unfairly as your original point was made courteously, regardless of your views on hunting differing from those of George and Kathy. I am surprised that pro-hunters experience harrassment from the police. It contradicts my experience of 40 years of living in various hunting areas. I must disagree with you on the CA, they are a single issue group. They are not the voice of the 'countryside' and to suggest that they are is mere sophistry. Also, regarding the numbers of dead foxes,if you know anything about this species you will know that hunting is fairly irrelevent. The biggest danger by far is road traffic, the result of which mean that foxes have very foreshortened lives. The argument for hunting as population control is entirely specious. Were it not, there would be no reason for fox hunts to actively breed foxes.

regards

Henry

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Animal rights campaigners Chris Potter, 17, and Ziggy Ramone, 26, who had their stall dismantled by police after setting up in Stroud High Street ZSJD2010V07 Animal rights campaigners Chris Potter, 17, and Ziggy Ramone, 26, who had their stall dismantled by police after setting up in Stroud High Street ZSJD2010V07

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